This week in Bitcoin- 8-23-2019- Contrarian bet, safe haven, hyperbitcoinization, gold, Amber, Bakkt


Hello everyone
this is adam meister the bitcoinmeister the disrupt meister welcome to this week
in bitcoin today is August the 23rd 2019 strong happy unique bestow your wealth
in bitcoin having height uncommon stable one big quid equals one bitcoin affected
by selling in motion five digit realm best guest in the space right here your
home for bitcoin insider information we’ve all got the conviction here alex
is back yeah alex Penske he is back from australia and we got anders coming in
from california i am so pumped we’re just gonna jump right into this show
right now the big news at the beginning of the week you’ve probably forgotten it
by now people because you’ve been inundated with my god this week was
filled with like nonsense blockchain let’s start a blockchain for this
country type of news it was like straight out of 2016 but there was
something pretty legitimate beginning the bat announced that backs of bitcoin
futures and warehouse to debate to debut in September and we knew it was coming
now they’ve given this day anders what do you think about this well it seems to
be like it definitely all good news I don’t think there’s anything bad about
it and as I understand it it does allow institutions to get in in a way that is
secure for them that they couldn’t do before I guess it has to do with the
with the way that bitcoin is is held or being yeah held in custody
in a way that is safe and probably hopefully insured and if that is the
case it’s extremely positive so it’s a thing that it but I I don’t personally
care too much about it because I for me I see their they having as you were
watching upon yourself in the beginning that the having hyper it is what
I believe is is the strongest driving force of a price of Bitcoin and and I
know you often Adam say if the prices is not really important and of course
that’s we’re here for mass adoption but price does something – mass adoption as
well it is what gets people – you know they talk about it on CNBC and TV shows
and they pay attention and then they want to get some because the Fillmore
starts so it does have a positive effect on adoption a higher price also a higher
price means that the developers basically get funded because some of the
developers simply hold bitcoins themselves so a higher price means that
they don’t have to do other things but can focus on developing and also there’s
as I kind of see it as an outsider to the developer community
companies like block stream and others have been founded by people with a lot
of it coin and they can then you know in the same situation because they become
more wealthy the the founders of the company or their companies themselves
afford to fund it coin development so so I think price is super important and and
growing up is great and I think having is the main thing that drives it I think
the work from at 100 trillion us either I think the quant mathematician in
Poland I believe all the the work he’s done there at analyzing the structure
flow model for Bitcoin has been extremely precise and China just had
have put a lot of confirmations to the thoughts that I had earlier and then
actually making some things more precise yeah backed is great but having is what
it’s all about hey I like that attitude right there and
I like how you brought up the price in terms of funding the developers of
course I’m still gonna stay one Bitcoin equals one big boy and I’m offended by
selling of course but the the having height obviously will bring up the price
but this back type institutional hype perhaps brings up the price also I get
for me it’s all baked into the cake with the back thing I knew it we’ve all known
it’s going to be coming for a while and now they give us September so Alex
what’s your thoughts down in Australia about that looks similar and is in terms
of net effect I think well there’s a couple points I’ll touch on I think
first top of mind is you guys were just talking about price and stuff and price
is inextricably linked the economic model of Bitcoin is inextricably linked
to its security you know speculation is a network effect you know and the way
Bitcoin is designed is this fundamental economic monetary system you know it
it’s recursive you know the stronger the price the greater the security the more
the incentive and more people want to get in you know the more volatility the
more speculation etc and it’s sort of this snowball effect that and that keeps
growing so you know you can never really discuss Bitcoin without I I think what
you’re sort of getting at adam is people people start to you know spend their
times think spend their time thinking about tea leaves and trying to analyze
that shit with respect to price and not understand that the the fundamental
element of price is just this discovery of what this thing is worth and as that
price grows it’s just the reflection of the network becoming stronger and
becoming broader etc now you know tying that back into backed you know how that
helps I mean I don’t know like so from what I understand backed his actual
physical settled futures so that’s sort of different to what’s been
proposed in the past or what exists etc um you know I have heard people talk
about you know these ETFs being a form of centralization of you know the the
actual asset itself and so you know I don’t know if I’ve got an opinion there
yet because I haven’t really spent time looking into it but you know if you
think about it logically if you’ve got you know a hundred billion dollars worth
of Bitcoin being held via and some other ETF or some other instrument that is not
actually Bitcoin one could argue that you know that
that’s a you know that that’s some form of centralization in the in the broader
ecosystem I don’t know if that has an effect and you know again seeing
bitcoins progression nothing moves in a straight line you know we sort of ebb
and flow within you know pockets of the whole Bitcoin ecosystem being a little
bit more centralized at times then being less you know centralized etc you know
we saw that with mining right mining sort of went through this phase where it
felt really centralized you know it’s sort of dissipating so yeah so I don’t I
don’t have a direct opinion do I think it’s going to bring you know more
capital into the space yes that’s fine and at the end of the day I mean this
this whole thing is about you know a new monetary economic system which is
inextricably linked to capital coming onto the system so whatever long-term
thinking baby think about the long term here what what’s what’s going to happen
this is we’re just here all right everybody remember check out these guys
below they’re links are below pound that frickin like button all right Andrews I
want to get into a subject matter that also was discussed throughout the week
it seemed like there was a lot of frustration on Twitter from well a lot
of blowback I guess people talking about these crypto funds that diversified into
all sorts altcoins and had people people who are handing over their money to
these crypto funds for them to buy them the smart altcoins and lo and behold if
you just how Bitcoin just put it on your tresor
forgot about it it beats it beat the alt coins so Anders
your thought on the future of all coins diversification for the sake of
diversification and Bitcoin dominance right well like I always said and you
know my opinion since since a few weeks after or one month after I sort of read
into Bitcoin I I realized that the rest was part of her crap and you should stay
away from it and that’s was actually the reason I started this meetup in in Los
Angeles to try and educate people to you know the dangers of anything else but
Bitcoin sugar you can search dangerous related to Bitcoin there’s nothing
nothing is safe about the success of patron although I think it’s a very high
chance of success but but they’re all coins are I think if you study it a
little bit very clearly people that are scamming in business that don’t do their
due diligence and they use phosphorus you know each coin is either a you know
a fast coin like light coin that had like a faster but my more privacy coin
like Manero or it’s like Oh like and then there’s aetherium there’s a raw
computer and at the end of the day it’s about racing funds and put it in the
founders pockets but not really generating anything that has any value
and I know you know I’m used to getting some hate for that but I I think a lot
of people also have been happy that that when people like me know both me and
other people have been saying this that they have avoided losing money buying
all coins now when it comes to diversification yes you I think it’s a
good idea to diversify but definitely not in anything else then
Bitcoin when it comes to cryptocurrency because of wit money is a
winner-takes-all game and according to Gresham’s law which makes a lot of sense
in the end the strongest money the best money is the one that is the only one
that has value the wrist will just be be used in Houston use and so you don’t
have it anymore because you don’t want to have it you want to keep the one in
your hand and your back pocket that has the best value so if you want to
diversify I would personally more consider something like QQQ which is a
Nasdaq ETF and Vanguard Reed they have things called B and Q or something that
I think is simple so that’s away from the crypto sphere like so what I’m
saying is bottom line I wouldn’t touch anything else diversification wise in in
the crypto sphere only low outside and you’re spot on and is your spot or just
gonna throw something in there while it’s on top of mind so I think you know
to really sum that piece up is you know aside from the Gresham’s law in the fact
that money is a convergent network and that all of these other things are
effectively currencies they’re not equities they’re none of that sort of
stuff so what ends up happening is all the liquidity converges into you know
the the the acid or the good or the tool that acts as money that’s the the
primary one right so aside from that fact even you know even if we took that
out of the equation for people looking to diversify you cannot diversify with
assets that are all correlated in nature like the definition of diversification
is to pair or to group together assets that are uncorrelated if everything
moves in the same direction so all these idiots who went and who went and
diversified their crypto portfolio with crypto they didn’t actually get the
benefit of diversification which is lowering risk they actually increased
the leverage in their portfolio so they don’t sleep on the opposite range they
didn’t do any they had no idea what they were doing I
wrote a big article about this about you know why Amber for example is a Bitcoin
only product cuz I always get asked that and they’re like oh you know what if
people want to diversify across coins I said that’s just stupid you know you
can’t diversify across coins if if we’re gonna allow people to diversify it’s a
different asset class that does something completely unrelated to a
Bitcoin doz yeah come on I agree and also I think when it comes to this as
Adam you were talking about in your question about these hedge funds or
hedge fund managers or crypto fund managers they created these funds big
because they can make good fees on splitting investments between different
cryptocurrencies and and that’s why they have to argue that it does make sense to
support financially this other crap coins out there and and they’ve just
become so hilarious when there’s still to this state when it’s I think so
obvious and logic that these other block chains and and and coins it’s so obvious
that they’re gonna end up very close to zero and and they still argue that no it
it makes sense to diversify and and they attack people like us for you know being
toxic because we we call them out on their on their scams you know and but
and that’s why to this day I very proudly call myself a proxy medalist
because I’m a toxic maximalist and I’m proud of it because I’m doing that for
the better of people now they something that you said they have the buzzwords
though the buzzwords lure in the 80 percenters they’re gonna always have
this with the next Bitcoin this is the best thing this is the private Bitcoin
so of course it seems like you are diversify into something completely
different but again they are they are totally correlated with Bitcoin
Bitcoin goes up it brings all the rest of them up Bickley goes down different
it’s it’s silly to me at this point but again there’s a lot of newbies that have
yet to get into the space that are going to that are used to diversifying you
know they may that’s how they were taught to invest and they think these
these things are actually different now we’re talking about different assets
something else that’s been in the news this week is gold of course in the last
two weeks to tell you the truth gold has been going up it so I guess and Alex
what’s your thought on gold look it’s still it’s one of the you know you just
said 80% is right so but most people are gonna be still but most people still
perceive gold as the safe haven asset right and at some point in time the this
is this is a multi generational shift to really you know start viewing Bitcoin as
that safe asset so I know there’s a lot of talk these days about you know is
Bitcoin becoming a safe haven asset and and I don’t know like I’m skeptical that
it is becoming a safe haven asset at this point in time um you know from a
viewing it broadly speaking like I don’t think most people will still view
Bitcoin as a as a safe haven asset at this point in time I still think it’s a
more considered a speculative asset amongst people but where I’m going with
that is that the investment opportunity for Bitcoin whilst there might be a bit
of a flavor of safe haven I think the bigger investment opportunities that
it’s an emergent asset class not not just the safe haven today where it was
gold is it’s not an emerging asset class gold emerged over the last five thousand
years so Gold’s that boring safe haven asset that um you know that people will
you know go to when they think that shit’s hitting the fan around the world
and I mean we’re seeing that right we Hong Kong you you name it you can
basically point to just about any continent now and there’s a big drama
going on and people are wondering what the hell to do so you know the US dollar
because it’s still you know again money this convergent network effect the u.s.
dollar is still considered as a safe haven asset so you know capitals flowing
in there people are also you know thinking maybe I should buy some gold
you know you see silver rallying as well and you know maybe a small percentage of
people are starting to view Bitcoin as a as a safe-haven asset so they’re putting
some capital there and that might be part of the driver but again you invest
in Bitcoin for a very different reason is because it’s an emergent safe-haven
asset versus an established state haven asset where gold is alright Anders I
know you’re gonna have enough to say about what he just said sure yeah yeah I
want to continue on that I think I think alex is is right about that bitcoin is
still emerging gold is seen as safe haven by people because well I all the
people who haven’t you know filled it kind of in and a Bitcoin yet they still
see the safe haven like right now personally I would see gold as extremely
unsafe Haven because I would feel that within the next five to eight maybe ten
years there’s gonna be a switch between the valuations of those two so I
wouldn’t feel safe at all in gold it’s nice and shiny but that’s not what
really gives it its value I think so right now bitcoin is the emerging asset
and it is I think because if you look at the properties all the way down and
compare gold to to Bitcoin we we all know that that bitcoin is a better asset
in many ways the ways that it cannot be seized you can send it to the other side
of the world instantly and and all these things so so it it is a better safe
haven asset it’s just still yet an emergency haven asset but correctly it
won’t take more than eight years and the two have swapped places in my opinion
maybe gold will hold on a little bit value but it will be bigger than gold
market cap y-yeah yeah and as I a hundred percent agree yeah I’m not
saying you yeah you don’t but it’s a temporal thing you know it’s it’s like
right now in the psyche of you know most people and where most of the capital is
in the world gold is still you know that piece you know and but bitcoin is so
much more superior it’s not even funny but there’s only one element that um
that gold beats Bitcoin in and that is the fact that it’s physical but I’m you
know I mean you’ve got those what are they called um the open Dimes that’s
basically physical bit right and I think that’s more superior to gold as well so
you know really then you get think about like if you want to go through customs
in an airport you want to walk with something physical or do you want to
memorize correct because if you just memorize your seat you can’t carry 500
million dollars in your memory I mean when someone that originally I was like
I was blown away I think that’s that’s pretty awesome
yeah me and Gigi have talked about this a lot is that you know bitcoins
redefined you know how really define money redefined location redefined all
of these things like you know when someone asks you where’s your Bitcoin I
mean you know what you can’t answer that question it’s an impossible question to
answer because it’s not anywhere but it’s everywhere
right it’s on the blockchain all the nodes when someone asks you that
question though you’ve got one an or me ask you that question
you gotta give them an answer that makes sense I just like it’s on this device
that’s I just yeah yeah again yeah but fundamentally
fundamentally that is um you know it’s not the case right so it’s just it’s
just such a profound you know reinvention it’s it’s a profound
reinvention it’s a profound change in the way we understand money you know
it’s like when you hold gold it’s here it’s now you know you can identify the
location you know what it is but you know but Bitcoin so much more powerful
in that sense because it is so much more meta and I’m and yeah so 100% that this
is this is an emergent monetary asset that is superior in every form than
anything that we’ve ever had and you know the benefit that we have now and
this is sort of what I tell people you know buying Bitcoin now is kind of like
being that caveman 5,000 years ago when everyone was still using shells and
rocks and stuff like that and you know you were trading your shells and rocks
with these other people who found this yellow shiny rock and they thought the
yellow shiny rock was useless because everybody else was using shells and
stones and crap so they were like oh yeah I’ll give you this rock and give me
that give me the shells and some dude was smart enough to to collect as much
of this yellow shiny rock as possible and what ended up happening was it
emerged as the the best object or the best tool that we could collectively as
a society use as money and and now here we are with a with a much better you
know 2.0 you know like a real zero to one innovation on that yeah this is
where the game is that this is absolutely where the game is that if I
can say just something in an extension of that what what I like to do to say or
look at when I looked at their different money’s like we came from the shells and
the stones and and then came to Gold and now to a Bitcoin there’s there’s a
couple of properties that that money has and Bitcoin has infinite value on all of
them exists not one where and yes okay privacy is maybe not there 100% yet but
well if you use wasabi wallet with point join and then that’s the other thing as
well you can use I don’t recall the name of that you can actually already now
create some privacy but when you go through that so actually all the way
through like traditional money properties Bitcoin has maximum value and
nothing else has that that has the network effect and security safety and
scarcity which is hundred percent cap again that Bitcoin
has and at the same time it Sun confiscate able and it’s censorship
resistance so it’s you can’t make a better money than Bitcoin yeah correct
I’m I mean let’s just for that for the listeners let’s um let’s list those
attributes so so money performs three functions its money should perform first
and foremost be a store value then it evolves into a medium exchange and then
it becomes a unit of account so that’s sort of the life cycle of money that’s
the functions of performance but for a money to perform those functions it
needs certain attributes so it needs to be it needs to be durable it needs to be
divisible it needs to be portable it needs to be homogeneous meaning it needs
to be the same needs to be recognisable needs to be scarce so they’re sort of
the attributes that an ideal money has and yeah like you said Bitcoin is a ten
out of ten on all of those whereas everything else is some sort of scale on
that and I mean you know we’ve got ten out of ten
yeah I think you know gonna beat that then what the thing you can say that it
like let’s say if you’re like coin fan and you go but yeah like when it’s like
we copied the code like it’s exactly the same like okay small tweaks so it’s kind
of also ten out of ten but here’s a very important difference and that is the
network effect you know the Bitcoin already has that light point just never
even has been close to and that’s why you can forget it like you cannot take
over something that has ten out of ten all the way down with like one percent
of the users you can write yeah you’re very correct yeah you have to bring to
the table that is an order of magnitude better generous it’s an order of
magnitude better when you’re infinite value all the way down on portable
durable divisible fungible etc spot on spot on yes so we had a zero to one
innovation to get here and now that like at least and this is sort of what I tell
people I got there will not be I mean I don’t know whether in five hundred years
we come up with something better I doubt it but you know maybe sometime in the
next millennium or two or whatever you know
we don’t blow ourselves up we may come up with something better but as far as I
understand converting energy to you know a you know digital immutability and
digital scarcity that gives you you know that the maximum you can get on all of
those and is coupled with this immaculate conception that bitcoin is
like it’s this thing that is complex and as you know grown in the market exactly
the way it needed to your generation my generation no other generation at least
for the next 5 10 15 20 100 generations is going to come up with something
better um the same and that’s why I can say count that like button my fellow
caveman before how that like button you guys that are watching this my elite
friends I forgot to say hello to all you but man this is Benna elite shows so far
I want to bring Alex before the show you a tweet well I think it was yesterday
we’re talking about a Bitcoin being the contrary in bet I think this is a nice
time to bring up what you meant by that well I’m writing an article at the
moment which is um it’s called ten years on and Bitcoin is still the contrary in
bet like if if we you know if Bitcoin was supposedly some sort of startup
right you know it like when investors or VCS or you know people in the
marketplace generally go and look at startups they’re like look at this
amazing startup it’s been around for this long it’s gotten through these
challenges it has all of these evangelists around it like raving fan
customers like you look at all of those things um and in a normal mental
framework in a normal mental model people would think that bitcoin is the
greatest success in history but the general view of Bitcoin is like you walk
around on the street and you mentioned the word Bitcoin to people and we do
this a lot because of the you know the kind of product that we have people
think it’s dead people think it’s you know it’s it’s you know there’s still
this idea that it’s a scam or a ponzi or that it died I didn’t Bitcoin crash
isn’t it back to zero like it’s still the general consensus amongst people is
that this thing is gone when in reality when
you look at the facts it is you know if you wanted to to put it in the mental
model or in the framework of startups or anything else other than something is
contentious as the creation of a new money um Bitcoin is like a big great
success we’ve ever seen you know I don’t know of any product that’s got raving
lunatics like us jumping up and down on YouTube telling people to bash like
buttons and you know warring with each other on Twitter and all that I mean
imagine if a product had that kind of consumer base it’ll be the greatest
product in the world you know the closest thing I can think of is Apple
but I can guarantee you you know people are willing to die for Bitcoin not
willing to die for Apple so like this is this is the one of the strongest stories
I’ve ever seen and again you know it’s still the contrary in bet because people
there’s this broad consensus like I said earlier that it’s dead or that it’s you
know scam or whatever now what that means is the upside potential is still
extraordinary whilst it is the contrary in bet it is extraordinary and I put a
tweet up a couple weeks ago which sort of said that you know one of bitcoins
greatest advantages is that so many people still hate it and will hate it
for a while to come which keeps it the contrary in bet and that is where the
upside is that so what I’m referring to there is when Bitcoin becomes the thing
that everyone once or that everyone is already holding and that everybody
already agrees is the thing that we’re all using it is no longer the contrary
in bit but at that point in time it’s no longer the thing you’re buying for for
the purpose of you know increasing your net worth or whatever it’s not the
Bitcoin has evolved from being this emergent store of value of this emergent
monetary unit to being an established safe haven monetary asset so this this
whole lifecycle thing is really important and right now it is the
contrary but because of the point in time where it’s at and it’s
just see how something’s so successful can still be a contrarian bet it’s it’s
just fucking phenomenal and I know and I love that Wow
pound that like button people that is that is inside we’ve got the insider
information you really put it out there nicely
Anders what’s your what’s your thoughts on on the reply to what Alex just
pointed out they’re not about this you know that you go out in the world today
most people think it’s failed it is true yeah it’s it’s true that it’s it’s
actually amazing that ten and a half years on something that is so I think
logically fantastic idea still has not been accepted by each and every seven
billion people how many we are on earth because it makes so much sense and it’s
actually not so difficult to understand if you if you opened your mind but the
problem is that the teachings we have from society from school from media from
pride like unaudited federal reserve’s that are teaching us another thing of
course that and that has given people a point of view where it takes longer time
to get them to open their mind and smell the roses or you know see see how simple
and logic it actually is that it is just a better mind that’s where the advantage
lies for people like us right so you know I have a saying in life yeah I have
a saying life which is if you want to win be the contrarian don’t run with the
crowd and I love and this is why I love Bitcoin so much is because I’m
fundamentally contrary and I’ve always been one in my life
I always do the opposite of what people tell me all that sort of stuff I mean I
sometimes take takes things to an extreme but I love Bitcoin so much
because if you go in the you know in in the normal world bitcoin is the contrary
but everyone thinks it’s dead in the finance world everyone thinks it’s our
you know it’s bullcrap you know we’ve got a financial system ready you go into
the blockchain world they all think it’s crap because they’re more interested in
their bullshit means you go in the coin world you know the etherium guys they
think they’re the real deal so all the shit coins think that it’s you know crap
everybody all of these groups all think that it’s it’s the one that’s missing
and you know for those who are who can and there’s there’s a distinction
between being contrarian and being stupid and and that is taking doing an
analysis from first principles so when we look at Bitcoin you and I don’t just
magically believe in it because we also believe in unicorns and you know fairy
dust we we have actual facts and we have first principles that guide why we
understand Bitcoin the way we do so when you find something where the first
principles add up and you have a consistent strong applicable narrative
and everybody else is thinking the opposite you have the greatest
opportunity upside possible and and that’s why you know I Alex it reminds me
of I started investing just a little bit when I was from when I was 12 years old
I bought my first star and and people mostly said you should go and talk to
the you know advisor in the bank which star to buy but I’m like if whatever
advice I’m gonna get there and everyone else got it further that that’s I’m just
I’ll be going with the flow and I’ll be you know seven steps behind them that’s
not gonna be advantageous you gotta do your own analysis and and your own
thinking and find out what so and what’s not a winner and I think I
mean I personally started believing in Internet in like 95 90 yeah I think 95 I
started an Internet company in 96 and it was the same situation as now that you
know people didn’t believe in the Internet in the 90s like a lot of people
some people that a lot didn’t because why would we need a news website because
we still we have newspapers I’m never you know I’m just gonna read
my newspaper why would ever go to a website for news well you will read your
newspaper if you want yesterday’s news and the website is for today’s news so
what am I trying to say with that yeah I think what’s important what I’m or what
I’ve always tried to do and what comes natural to me is if something new comes
along look at the properties of that thing like analyze it and totally ignore
the fact that it has 0.001 market share at this point I’m only look at how great
it is and if it is like orders of magnitudes better than what is now it
doesn’t matter if it hasn’t taken over the world yet then it will highly likely
unless there’s something you know structurally in the way of that
happening and and that’s where I think the
eighties 80% us as Adam speaks a lot about and which is totally true I agree
with you they tend to not believe in something becoming successful until it
actually has to be complete which is going along the the thoughts you have
with the contrary and Beth there I think yeah
they feed on radius is overrated as I say sorry yeah totally yeah well let’s I
want to talk about something that involves 80 percenters something they
don’t have low time reference as a way of life Alex yes I
was I was catching up with a friend over the weekend and we’re just having a
conversation so she’s sort of like she’s interested in you know the environmental
movement and you know being a collage achill and all that sort of stuff and
you know I could sense smart girl but I could sense undertones of things like I
you know um you know the it’s the corporations and all that sort of stuff
that are screwing up the environment B you know and and she sort of almost said
like the corporate capitalist sort of structure and and I had to correct her I
was like look it’s got nothing to do with with capitalism it’s got everything
to do with the the time preference that society has at the moment capitalism at
its at its core is actually the closest system we have to something that is
natural because capitalism you know optimizes for power laws
capitalism optimizes for production for value for input for work whereas the
crony capitalism system that we have at the moment optimizes for you know when
you’re at the top you know you don’t stay at the top by innovating or adding
more values there at the top by regulating and getting into you know
powers with your mates so that way you can put roadblocks in front of you know
those that are potentially better than you so what what I sort of explains in
her was what Bitcoin gives us and why again it’s such a contrary in view to
everything that we have in the world today is Bitcoin optimizers for a more
for a lower time preference type of lifestyle or a lower time preference
type of economic system because your wealth and the purchasing power of that
wealth you know at a point in time will become fixed you know did the work you
put in is measured in this unit and that unit is fixed in society now yes you
know there might be fluctuations and stuff like that but broadly speaking to
what I’m talking about is you know at the point of high per Bitcoin ization or
you know where where bitcoin is the you know the network upon which you know
we’re all sort of operating in at that point in time when you don’t have to
I’ll explain it this way at the moment we have that the monetary system where
the economic system is designed so that you’re incentivized to go and spend as
much as you can and to chased yield in every single way that you can because
your wealth is depreciating by about 50 percent every ten years so what you
inherently get is a system or a model where consumerism
is optimized or is incentivized people just go and spend all the money they
have because you know that they they’re incentivized to consume because of
inflation and because they’re you know their wealth is depreciating and then
those who may not want to consume instead of producing you know what
they’re going out and doing is they’re going investing money blindly into
anything that they can possibly invest in chasing yield in places where you
wouldn’t normally chase yield and we see malinvestment we see stupidity we see
all these zombie corporations you know going around the world we see you know
ghost cities like we see in China we see all these distortions in an economy
because we’re incentivized to have a high time preference we’re incentivizing
we are incentivizing now over the future whereas if you can swap that around with
something like Bitcoin where you actually fix the UM the the unit through
which we measure people’s value input ie the money you create a society where
that incentive doesn’t exist anymore so those who want to store their wealth
they don’t have to chase yield anymore they can store their wealth those that
want to work and have input guess what now
you don’t have to go and blindly spend all your money you can optimize you can
buy it what you want what you need primarily first so it’s it’s a you know
the way I look at economics it’s you know it’s just the fractal of biology
it’s a fractal of physics everything you know functions on incentives you know
a physical system is something that has inputs and outputs and you know like the
best analogy I give to people is more biological example is the instant of
mechanism for life is pain and pleasure now you you you do things you you get
pleasure you do more of those you do things you get pain you get you know you
do less of those and we start to optimize and grow around that an
incentive an economic system is very similar is that the incentive and the
disincentive is like pain and pleasure pleasure and pain and I’m what ends up
happening is the way you set the framework up then takes us down a path
and in the beginning it might not seem too bad but you take that out ten years
twenty years fifty years hundred years 200 years here we are now where we’re
all blind consumers and we’ve built all of this you know financial so-called
infrastructure where you know for the average mum and dad like I was catching
up with my mom and having um breakfast two weeks ago and she’s like she’s
panicking she’s like you know I’ve saved up all this money I’ve you know been
working I don’t know that should we put it in a property should we go on the
stock market everything’s you know going up and down we don’t know what to do and
I’m like man that is so messed up like the fact that people don’t know where to
store their wealth because they’re too scared to keep it in a bank that I
wanted to devalue they’re scared of negative interest rates they’re scared
of assets because they’ve been over hyatt like the world’s gone mad and and
that is all as a result of this high time preference there’s now now now now
now now now now now at the expense of the future so to loop this all back with
this girl who is a bit more an environmentalist then what I sort of
explained to her is that the way to fix a lot of these problems of you know
crazy you know shit that’s happening with the environment like where we don’t
care about the future of that is to adjust at the core the time preference
for society and when we have a lower time preference we will do things that
are more ecologically sensible instead of nonsensical because we are all
collectively converging towards a you know a bias that is long term as opposed
to short term so yeah you know what though I think the
bye-bye-bye hyper consumerism it’s just too tempting
I think the 80 percenters will always be that way and that most low time
preference isn’t going to be their thing but Andrews what do you have yeah well
III think well Adam that once Bitcoin which is what I believe happens within
10 years takes over as the money that everybody has around the world it will
be the mother the world reserve currency and and enroll consumer money called
what you will it because it’s deflationary it it will teach everyone
including the 80 percenters they will see how if they wait one month buying
that thing it’s become cheaper they will see if they wait one year actually their
money has become even that much more worth and the reason that happens is
that you know you have this much money in the world which is the 21 million
bitcoins then you have this much GDP the money doesn’t rise but GDP you know
production of goods and services keep rising and that’s why the value of the
money keeps going up because each unit and buy more of all the production
that’s that’s what’s meant by the deflationary and I have no doubt that
this is such a strong mechanism that it will change people from high time
preference to low time preference will be going from consumer society to a
saving Society I think it can actually productive
productive I think that some what we what we what we vote what we move away
from is we that kind of a model optimizes production as opposed to
consumption and in that that’s the important thing right is because what
you want to do in that type of environment is you want to acquire more
wealth because your wealth is going to you know appreciate so what you want to
do is you want to produce more you be a better producer you want to you
know you add more value you want to put more input into society and that’s a
strong fundamental incentive of that system so yeah 100% I think it will
where today we think it’s a you know the the chance of saving your way to you
know financial independence at retirement like that you can actually be
you know retire on the savings you did throughout your life it’s it’s pretty
much a joke today it’s non-existent but again become very much possible even for
you know lower middle class and to some extent for people as long you know if
you can keep your spending at a low enough level then that if Latian arey
affect your money has the way that to become worth more even for someone who
doesn’t make that much money you know if it five years to give it 10 years 15 20
years you know people will learn that they through being you know saving
instead of spending that can freely accelerate and they can become
financially independent I would I want to say what ESCA Alex one question here
you brought up shit word hyper Bitcoin ization and and the big believer in that
are you a big um I’m okay there’s two parts of that question I
guess is number one is the timeframe question you know I’m I don’t think I
personally don’t believe ten years is realistic I personally think is gonna
take a hell of a lot longer because I just think that this is a this is a
multi generational shift and then secondly I don’t know whether we end up
in a world where you know it is just Bitcoin I actually think we’re more
likely to head in a world where we’ve got parallel economic systems
functioning you know we’re we’re you’ve got I kind of call it that the
four that I kind of say is you’re gonna have us slash NSA you’ll have you know
the Chinese Social Credit System you’ll have labor Anzac box and you’ll have the
one free society you know runs on Bitcoin now you know long term what does
that look like you know will the people from the others jump ship you know and
come across the Bitcoin maybe but maybe they’ll be stuck in their own matrix
there’ll be too deep in their own matrix that um that they won’t jump you know
we’ll have this parallel system so I feel like that’s the more pragmatic and
realistic approach but you know yeah I think it’s gonna be although I can hear
that birthday you believe in this I think it’s gonna be so obvious for
anyone living in any of those other systems and storing their wealth in
either a Chinese currency or USNS a currency a leaper or whatever that it
can is so much better because we aren’t gonna reach you know the knowledge and
understanding of Bitcoin is spreading like rings in water and yes we’re still
at a very low percentage of the global population but we do have tremendous
speed still when you look how much is it chief from you know in 2008 it was one
person and then in 2009 I don’t know how many people ten hundred fifty maybe it’s
funny in the beginning of 2000 it’s so there’s by an order of magnitude every
year yeah yeah so and an order of magnitude every year is a lot so yeah it
means that means ten years from now that means everyone in the world has the
knowledge and understanding maybe that would be some left but I mean if all it
takes is you know more than 90% and then it the effect will be so strong that
that there’s no doubt I think in there won’t be you know you can’t ignore it
anymore and it’s just it’s gonna happen you can fight it like fighting I think
it’s my in fighting Bitcoin taking over because
its superior is like fine keep fighting the gravity of a black hole that’s what
I like to say because that’s that’s impossible you can’t fight the gravity
of a black hole and I I don’t think you can fight Bitcoin taking over and I
think it has that kind of speed as you say and maybe it hasn’t felt that like
as that much the last couple of years but since we’re getting tore a size now
in a mound of people you know having that speed now it really starts picking
up yeah look III agree to the extent that you
know I’ve called the coin a black hole many times and you know it’s just
something that sucks liquidity it sucks up capital it sucks interest it sucks
your public life up it’s you know it’s my it’s my personal black hole here Here
I am it’s it’s technically my birthday today and I’m in the office at 6:30 p.m.
and I got another podcast after this so literally this is all I do
and I’m sitting here first day thirty minutes past midnight now it’s like one
and a half hours past midnight yes exactly so I I agree with you I just
feel like the the existing system I just don’t think it’s gonna be that clean I
think the process is gonna be far more protruded so even if we do end up with
some form of hyper mechanization where everybody is on a Bitcoin type standard
I think that is probably even further further further away I think that the
Bitcoin economic system can probably sustain itself on you know and I’m just
pulling numbers out of my butt here but you know half a billion or a billion
people and it can be a parallel functional economic system through which
you know a subset of the population completely you know is able to operate
on you know and they can be anywhere around the world whilst the other
systems the only way they’ll survive is by literally creating firewalls and
roadblocks and all of that sort of stuff around within their jurisdiction so that
the people who are inside those they just don’t you know they don’t get
to peer into you know this big 20 because and and that’s sort of I hear
you yeah I don’t think it’s and I mean yet again just let me say this like you
know we very much agree on that’s probably you know that’s where it’s
gonna end up and talking about the timeline is not something worth maybe
discussing to hard but I think that but reaching a level where say half a
billion used Bitcoin and half Bitcoin if it’s just going to be impossible for the
these other jurisdictions to to keep Bitcoin out because it’s exactly the
same as alcohol during the 20s in US prohibition you had plenty of alcohol
the last 50 years in u.s. I don’t know how many trillions of dollars have been
spent on fighting drugs all possible drugs you ever wanted has been available
in u.s. I don’t know from personal experience
but I mean I see movies and TV and you know you hear things so you know I mean
it is right you know it’s a problem it keeps being there look I I agree I agree
I agree but you know just always err on the side of never underestimate the you
know the stupidity of human consensus when people are operating you know from
from a place of um you know unfounded fear which is where they’ve been
operating for a long time so yeah that’s a good argument right there though I
have to give you that remember Allah Anders there are some dudes out there
that are very passionate about your hyper Bitcoin is Asian in ten years and
you can follow Anders he is linked to below so is Alex and I want Alex to talk
about one of your passions and that is amber act we haven’t covered that yet we
got it yet well really briefly so again this whole low time preference thing
amber is is a dollar cost averaging app so you know that there’s no longer a
use for people not to buy Bitcoin when they can sit in automatic purchase of
$20 a week 50 bucks a week $5 a day it doesn’t really matter and it just
accumulates Bitcoin for them so it’s actually it’s it’s a low time preference
product for a low time preference money for a low time preference human being so
anyone out there who’s trying to you know practice becoming a more you know
sensible low time preference human being and wants to start accumulating and
collecting this asset have a look at amber app that’s our website you know
and that’s really the the fundamental thesis behind that is just now is the
time to collect Bitcoin now is the time to you know get as much of this thing as
you can because you’re not gonna be able to buy as much in the future and that
that’s basically the one thing that we all can guarantee like we can’t we can’t
guarantee the timeframe we don’t know whether it’s gonna take 10 years 50
years hundred years to hype a bitcoin eyes but that that’s the trajectory
that’s the trend and the one thing you know we can all agree in say is that
bitcoin you know in the in the future is gonna be worth a hell of a lot more than
it is now in you know dollar nominal terms so you know the best strategy is
just close your eyes and just keep buying simple oh oh one quick thing
about Amber app I have many people the growing audience from Australia it’s
only available in Australia correct correct it’s only available in Australia
at the moment I’m hoping by the end of the day I’m actually I’ve people from
South America from South Africa like all this cool stuff have reached out and
said look you know when you’re launching here you know can we partner can you
help you and all that stuff so my plan is by the end of the year to announce
the next couple jurisdictions that we’re going to launch in so I’m so exciting
times men you know coming into 2020 we’re going to be trying to get
available in as many places as possible around the world all right
value your wealth in Bitcoin Alex thank you so much for making your your
appearance your return to the show and I really do love that for different
parallel systems that you brought up there that I’m going toward that path
that you talked about now Anders what are your conclusion Airy thoughts he or
anything you want to bring up talk about well first of all I want to say I think
it ballocks that I think it’s great what they’re doing and I wish them a lot of
success because it’ll be good for them it’ll be good for a lot of people I
believe it’ll be very good for whoever actually starts using the product so
great to you have that word spread you will command a my pleasure
and then yeah if people want to follow me I’m on twitter with the Anders you
put it below Andrus underscore a and D ers underscore and then I recently I
heard one guy from ether was on tone show I don’t know if you saw that Adam I
heard that I know there’s a lot of you know you can’t see everything but so I
found that a little bit interesting I started their website and and they have
something that the world’s leader in social investing which means you know
people can follow each other so if one guy is doing really well on his
portfolio then other people can say okay listen I take $1,000 and copy whatever
he does and since investing is you know has been
my passion since I was a child I can’t wait for ether to launch starts as a you
know that you can buy that in u.s. because right now in u.s. you can fight
with that you can you can only buy cryptocurrencies and for me only Bitcoin
is interesting there you know the rest all right then each horror thing is very
interesting because I believe I’m going to be here in Israel talking to a guy
I’m the host of a fireside chat chat in September 10 public a Tel Aviv event
here in Israel I think I’m gonna be interviewing a eToro guy so this is good
to know this social invest that is very interesting thank you for for
yeah and you speak Alex in Australia I’m gonna be in Australia October 17th
until like November 20 something so all your Australian lives I’ll be seeing you
guys in person in October Alex any conclusionary thoughts on your
part nah man look thank you for having me on and is pleasure to meet you as
well man if I’m up la way I’ll let you know we’ll catch up yeah and then
likewise Adam when you’re down this way but hit us up I’ll be I’ll be a Baltic
honey badger and um in September and then I’m gonna pop over to Palm Springs
for crypto Springs actually and as you come into crypto Springs or not that
could be a good idea it’s not too far from here that’s um end of September man
so that’s around the corner from you intercept MBE shit you should come along
oh okay yeah so whoever has some info on the tickets and locations etc yeah just
chuck it type in crypto Springs comm I think men and just jump in there you’re
right why not you’re seeing online these dudes are in motion you can meet them in
person in Southern California wherever all right this is great stuff I love it
I love it dank I know yes yeah I just also want to say thank
you for having me on I really appreciate it I don’t think I said that me and
again this you know this is real when you were up at 1:00 in the morning or
with it all of us are up at 1:00 in the morning with this stuff at times doing
interviews doing weird things through a blog post this is real this is the
future and as Alex point out earlier it is amazing that on the street people
think this is dead we’ve got the insider effort when you watch a show like this
you get the insider information knowing that this thing is huge like Apple would
kill to have fans like this to have passionate people like this and that
that’s definitely saying a lot so this is Jay and this is just the beginning
people just the beginning so on that positive note I have that adam meister
the bitcoinmeister the disrupt meister subscribe to channel like the video
sharing this but you’ll tell that like bang that Bell foot button we do this
this week a Bitcoin every single Friday I do a new show every single day
Saturday is beyond Bitcoin show I’ve got the conviction this is the system a new
show every day thank you very much everyone again shabbat shalom we will
see you soon

7 thoughts on “This week in Bitcoin- 8-23-2019- Contrarian bet, safe haven, hyperbitcoinization, gold, Amber, Bakkt”

  1. Right on! You’ll be rewarded for quality products with utilitarian value and punished for cheap and superficial products and services. How many different types of M&M’S does the world need.

  2. Sovereignty – Do you Know Who You are? 2 of 7.wmv – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJZ5_SqZhG8&list=PLtfDJdWNxgpmSb3rsv-CX-BqD_fTyjz05&index=2

  3. Fantastic show! Thanks Adam, Aleks and Anders for sharing your Bitcoin knowledge and insights. Like button pounded!

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