This week in Bitcoin- 11-2-2018- 10 years of Satoshi, Monero, Zcash, Giacomo Zucco


Hello everyone this is adam meister the
bitcoinmeister the disrupt meister welcome to the this week in bitcoin show
today is november the 2nd 2018 strong hand long-term thinking deferral of
gratification bitcoin is the next bitcoin one bitcoin equals one bitcoin
uncomplicated ball okay it’s that time of the week again and we’ve got guests
from all over the world I mean Santiago Chile but doesn’t matter
Giacomo Zuko is in Italy Josh also which I put his last name
oh that was good that was good oh it was good he is ill the East Coast somewhere
are you it I don’t want to give away your location if you okay and then we
got a Christian is in West to Rico and I’ve met Chris in person when I was
hanging in Puerto Rico but I’m really pumped was he’s gonna toss about what’s
really going on there I’ve never had a guest on that’s lives there actually
said you know sees all the changes that ago although I was there at what time
but we’re gonna start off here remember every these guys links are all below two
if you want to follow on Twitter and all that fun type of stuff so we’re gonna
we’re gonna start off with the news that that people were talking about in terms
of on Halloween it was a ten year anniversary of the white paper and you
know Satoshi published it on on that day ten years ago and some people were
celebrating some people were elevating him to a tremendous godlike level god
forbid and then there were some that were saying well you know why are we
this is this is the day the paper was probably didn’t actually start Bitcoin
didn’t start until January the third of what was a 2009 so we’re really not at
the ten year anniversary yeah for me I like actions they speak
louder than words and I don’t like to put dudes on pedestals I think – I mean
obviously Satoshi did a great thing but the workshop out there it’s unbelievable
sometimes so Giacomo what’s your take on all this is any and also is the white
paper some type of Bible or salute the Constitution or is it a living document
take it over jacquimo how do you do so my take is
that we we should have excuses to celebrate every time that we want and if
you want to celebrate big cash on August the 1st go go along and have some
whiskey or some beer or something so I’m all for celebration for every possible
excuses but in this particular case it’s very one it’s very fascinating that
people is fighting about which kind of birthday or 10 years celebration we
should actually have because that means a lot of decentralisation
into narrative and memes as well we can celebrate the pizza day we can celebrate
the jagannatha’s block or the first MANET block or the first transaction
from Satoshi to alpha knee or the white paper publication or the first chord
publication we have a lot of celebration dates and we should use them all
actually the Satoshi white paper shouldn’t be considered as a Bible it
should be considered as a super interesting historical document as much
as nick szabo blog post about big old and as much as adam back post and and
publications about ash cache or david charm publication about a cache that
that’s the prehistory of Bitcoin and that that email in 2008 was the
culmination of this pre story of Bitcoin so I I was it was very interesting to me
to to see all the celebration I’m absolutely pure celebration whenever I
say somebody to read a white paper I also always add that issue read a white
paper along with the annotation about the wrong thing contained in the white
paper so trigger alert I’m saying something something which is
unconceivable for most people out there but Satoshi Nakamoto was wrong
either I mean I don’t know if it was one human being or several human beings or
several artificial intelligences but in any cases it was eat them he was wrong
she so so I’m so I’m politically correct every kind of problem you want to use it
was wrong on some on some things for example he continues to when you read a
white paper you see the mention of cpu power which didn’t actually stand for
for for more than a few months because then people started to optimize to GPU
and then FPGA and then Essex and basically any single algorithm you can
think of can be printed into an Essex that by definition of the terminus t
Calgary’s and so there is no such thing as Isaac resistance and so that was the
first mistake and the second mistake was to for example it was saying that the
beacon nodes were following the longest chain but in that case you can create
the longest chain with lower difficulty and just out length the the right chain
and so yet to actually change the implementation order to fix this a few
months later and right now any Bitcoin Bitcoin client either a Bitcoin client
or alkyne clients like a light corn or B cash they are all following these a new
update inversion where you follow the chain with most the ballade chain not
the generic chain the value chain with most action power and not the longest
one the heaviest one and then equals node basically generating notes in
Satoshi Watts paper are basically the miners but now the terminology is all
changed because now we have nodes that validate the rules without mining and we
have miners that mine without validating the rules for example with spy mining or
blind mining and stuff like that so validation and mining they don’t go
along anymore and also Satoshi durr describes something called
a simple simple payment verification SPV which is something that turn turned out
not to work actually in practice so it was a good idea if possible but it
turned out it was not possible so far because you cannot have trust less proud
proofs so so it doesn’t work basically it requires switch switching from
trusting the miners only to set the chronology to trust in the miner to
define the rules which would be something superly easily super easy to
overtake from external parties so we suggest to read the that there is a hard
harding it song it up maybe I give you the link Adams so you can publish it
later if you want I write it on the on the chat and this is a good very good
analysis of everything that was wrong in the white paper so read it as the
probably the most historical moment the most important storica moment but not as
the bible and also another very interesting thing to read is the
discussion that follow it I am putting the link of that as well the discussion
that followed the publication of the white paper you should read that because
it’s very interesting the second element in that discussion that read email
thread is these James a Donald answering that that’s very nice but it doesn’t
scale at fundamental level and then there is like Al Feeny also speaking
about upper layers and discussion about privacy and about mining centralization
there are a lot and Satoshi answering that the miners cannot decide validity
they can they can just double spend changing chronology
so it’s super important to read this discussion as well because it’s very
very significantly for the history of the coin so if you can publish the links
I think that that would be something that we should do to celebrate the this
kind of first anniversary get somebody reading their notations and the full
email thread Wow also the way we party is we get out homework here people
you’re learning well I like that a lot I actually add I’ll add those links
below this video I sent them out to the public chat also right now people want
to click on them so Josh I heard you in the background there what what’s what’s
your thoughts on there do you think that the white paper dropped from the sky and
also I want to say for Jacko what a positive spin he puts on this
let’s celebrate everything hey Matt that’s that’s the Italian way I guess
pal they’re freaking like button people Josh what’s going on yeah so no I agree
I mean it’s important to recognize the event I think in the day we wouldn’t be
here without it but like you’re saying like the practical aspect of having a
block Genesis block and then going from there that the fact that it’s worked for
10 years is it’s a feat in its own right you know so yeah there’s lots of things
to celebrate I think worshipping it like people worship the Bible or the
Constitution is a little much but I think recognizing you know this was a
special thing in special times and yeah I haven’t even read the annotation so my
favorite so I’m excited to go back and read that I probably didn’t read the
white paper till like six months after I even got into Bitcoin just because I was
afraid I didn’t even know it was what was it gonna even be about like my
background is in computer science so but no yeah definitely interesting I’ve read
it several times since then I do have a follow-up question for you do you think
do you think he’s put on a pedestal too much satoshi nakamoto that he is he is
almost like a worship to figure out there oh like humans love this like
legendary figure like mystical thing he kind of fit he or she or whoever kind of
fits that like being anonymous disappearing I don’t think they’ve
actually disappeared I think they’re very much with us not like a spiritual
sense but a literal sense just because it’s like anybody that’s like a serial
killer like they don’t leave the scene of the crime like they’re interested in
like what happens right what’s going on at the time and how things are doing so
I don’t think so she’s dead I think they’re probably very much with us do
you think 10 years from now yeah people will care as much about about who he was
and the non I call at the nonsense that revolve the cult of Satoshi
I would hope that in 10 years that is expand that the Eco the crypto ecosystem
has expanded so much and includes so many more people that it’s just it’s a
it’s a footnote I again we’re supposed to be a decentralized uh movement here
and that is one interesting centralized aspect of it although he has no control
me he’s gone but there’s a centralized obsession almost with it so do you think
it ten years things will change your well it’s all be the same I think it’ll
be the same as long as they’re anonymous and as long as their keys haven’t or
their coins haven’t moved and as long as all the things that are the status quo
now how are continuing I think it’ll just be a perpetual like who is this
person how many coins do they have a little law just over and over again
everyone loves a mystery everyone like they want it they want to make a
conspiracy out of it ok let us go to Chris who is making his debut from
lovely Puerto Rico where they definitely know how to party down there so what’s
what’s your take on everything that’s been said yeah I agree with everything
that was said the thing that I would emphasize though is I think the 10th
anniversary to me it’s big because it’s just a signification that it’s 10 years
and it hasn’t broken yet you know all these Bitcoin obituaries and stuff you
know and one of the things I try to push back on a lot is that this idea that we
need all these new features we need to add a bunch of stuff I mean the kind
just works even if it doesn’t change from today it works and the 10 the 10
year anniversary is a big thing about that the other thing I’d say is you know
I agree with Giacomo that we should celebrate as much as possible each day
in each of these anniversaries is a is a point in time that we can talk about it
and get it out there more you know more of a reach to the mainstream media so
you know October 30 January 3rd which is the genisis block
and also January 9th which is the first block those are all days that we should
you know talk about Bitcoin nothing we don’t talk about it a trailer to anyways
it’s a positive that the mainstream media should pick up on I I you know
they’re not into two positives when it when it comes to Bitcoin speaking of
that actually in Vermont in New York time just came out with an article
bitcoins first felon faces more legal trouble and they’re talking about
Charlie Shrem so I mean we can talk about that but but my my point in
bringing that up is that still you know what its stead of talking about you know
it’s for ten years since the the white paper they talk about the bitcoins first
felon that’s that’s the tie mean they got to do their click baton and
everything I guess so uh and any any thoughts on that all of the making with
the mainstream media’s take on it still after ten years they’re talking about
the first felon in a major article it’s kind of inevitable I mean you know like
like we talked about earlier and talked about for a long time the first people
to get into a new technology are always people that are criminals rightly cars
shoes it’s always been that way so you know I think you know it’s going to take
I mean maybe someday if we have mainstream adoption and it’s been around
for you know decades and stuff that some of that stuff will go away but well it’s
being adopted that’s just you know par for the course I guess yeah
did Josh she have any thoughts on that this story or did you read the story in
all her yes so if it if it bleeds it leads and if it’s related to crime or
money especially a large amount of either I mean that’s gonna be in the
popular media’s attention for sure and plus it’s Charlie Shrem who isn’t
necessarily baseline a criminal but he’s done some things in the past that are
interesting to say the least any served his time and whatever but yeah so the
wincle fire basically accusing him of still owing them five thousand BTC and
trend bought a bunch of stuff last year allegedly I don’t know that’s fact or
not but including housing and state yachts cars whatever so he just
was on their radar again because he may or may not oh them money well talking
about it it bleeds it leads in criminality there actually was a real
tweet out there uh by the dude Giacomo you know about this Z cash guy was
talking about uh criminals not wanting to use his Z cash
so explain to us what’s going on there in that little Z cash drama that popped
up this week yes Luca will cooks that the guy that I really like because he
has the nickname which is similar to my surname so I can use that so like three
years ago a friend of mine was in UK and somebody was was saying what a good
photographer Zucco is and so he came home respecting me so much because it
was thinking that they were talking about me so I will always love Zuko will
kiss me but we cooks back I think that in general it doesn’t I mean it’s more
like the marketing advertising tool right now is not really the creator or
the system is more like a guy paid a lot to advertise if it is this alt coin and
I realized the cash for a series of reasons and especially this talk this is
a dis answer we are talking about now is very interesting so this tweet was
telling about the answer that Zuko Zuko answered to a question from the audience
at during his presentation so this guy in the audience asked a very reasonable
question so if you create that if you created these wonderful anonymous crew
the currency which is so better than Bitcoin because it’s more private and
more anonymous how comes that nobody is actually using it in the dark markets
and in in in black markets online so these markets are always using bitcoins
and in some cases some fringe cases they are they’re using Manero if you really
look at the transactions of any of course that the transaction that you can
link to so if you could do a performance analysis of the transaction that you can
link to these markets you never find any Z cash transaction why’s that
and the answer from from Zucco was basically that’s because criminals don’t
like me they don’t trust me personally which is a which I mean it’s
a funny answer in a way it’s a very nice answer but it’s also very telling
why shouldn’t criminal trust Zucco in order to use the cash that speaks about
complete perceived at last but it’s actually real but let’s say perceived
centralization actually the cash would be a terrible so the first thing i would
like to say about criminals is that ever we are we in this podcast and everybody
listening is a criminal in at least one jurisdiction on this planet there is
literally zero chances that you are not a criminal at least by drinking alcohol
or eating on Friday or or masturbating or whatever in at least one country over
this earth nothing I mean not in in in 2012 the century right now in at least
one jurisdiction you are a criminal for doing whatever you are doing today by
definition of the of the overlap of any legal enforcement and request in this
world so we are all criminal and why shouldn’t we trust Zucco and and then
use the cash if we are as we are all criminals that’s basically because the
cash doesn’t offer any relevant anonymity or privacy because basically
you have the option to use these Z transactions which are using sickest
narcs in order to escape the the relevant informations and empty
transactions that are normal become like transactions but you have the choice and
the UX doesn’t informs you correctly about the choice and the choice for
privacy is more expensive to create to to to broadcast to to double order to
validate and so basically nobody uses it and everybody used normal t transactions
and so the anonymity said the anonymity side which is the number of persons that
you could be if I’m tracking you so the number of person that you could pretend
to be and you can when you are trying to hide you have to hide in a number of
people you cannot hide if you are alone in in the center of a bigger room so you
have to blend to better to blend into a group of people so then a limited set of
any other coins included Manero and Asians and the cash is way smaller than
than a limited set of Bitcoin so even with no obligation of base layer Bitcoin
offers a wider unlimited set than these other cryptocurrencies but especially
with the cash people is using a smaller anonymity set for normal Bitcoin lies
transaction and the transaction remained in the in the other part the Z
transaction are so few that if you are using those you are yeah you are for
skating but you’re using an even smaller anonymity set so it’s trivial to the
anonymous you and indeed is not difficult to imagine that that it was
going to be something like this I mean II cash creators and Liberty Reserve
creators they were arrested because they were allowing people to transact with
basically an independent digital currency with strong privacy and
anonymity features and with independence from the Federal Reserve they were
arrested and the company closed and Satoshi Nakamoto created not another
company by the decentralized system using absurd anonymity identity and then
he disappeared not because it was just bored enough to do all this but because
this was necessary in order for the system not to be shut down so let’s
let’s ask yourself why should the US which are cracking down over whatsapp
cryptography and which are forcing Apple to to to insert backdoors into into
things why should they allow a super private cryptocurrency to be launched
and managed by a us-based for-profit company with the trademark in the u.s.
the Z cache company which is also making money directly in the code by the by the
with the fee that they will developer fee so if that if that’s not I mean if
that doesn’t scream honey pot I I don’t know what does so
yeah I think that criminis so we are more than right in not trusting my good
friend and very nice person Zuko well so again one has to remember
also that the Winklevoss exchange you know tying this to the wincle vibe we’re
gonna tie it all together here I guess Gemini you can get Z cash correct
Josh is that I believe that’s uh yeah it’s correct so again it shows you just
how private it might or might not be optional optional privacy isn’t privacy
privacy by default is privacy which is why if you have a choice between Zika
and monaro you’re using venero all day every day
it’s it’s a no-brainer like there’s that that’s why people
aren’t using Z cash because it’s not private it’s just like it’s marketed as
a privacy coin but it is really very little to do with privacy you know what
he is I think he’s cool that his last name his first name sounds like your
last name and gives you a jack abode gives you that attention it’s a that is
a positive for you I guess but he is he’s cool he’s a mark he’s he’s a finger
head definitely I think maybe you’re looking for that word before hand and
people you know we’re talking about putting people on pedestals he’s the the
genius they put on the pedestal over there now before we move to a very
charismatic guy I don’t want to and he’s also very nice guy I’m talking about him
all the time because I don’t like Sukesh but he’s very nice and very intelligent
only in this case I think that him just just as much as as Edward Snowden have
been used as a marketing tool more than than as scientists like I was a stark
school do they work well habla yeah oh that’s great it’s like groundbreaking
technology but it’s not trying to seek like it’s not a like fundamental base
down it’s not privacy all the time and the other thing about XMR it’s so good
that other countries including the Secret Service in the United States is
asking exchanges to delist it so what we’re seeing is XMR traded
volume on bisque which is a completely decentralized peer-to-peer no kyc no AML
it’s basically become the XMR exchange because it’s where everybody goes to
just stay anonymous the whole time which is it’s just it’s a definitely a
centralized point where there’s a point of failure at this point for XMR
transactions but if you buy XM are on an exchange then you D&D anonymize yourself
but if you transact peer-to-peer you don’t so that’s the draw for bisque
anyway this Manero situation is something to keep an eye on long term
because for sure as we get into the future in terms of financialization and
custodial services these big companies like fidelity that are going to have
crypto portfolios for the people who can’t control their own private keys
they are not going to include Manero most likely I mean they’re gonna include
Bitcoin they’re going to include cerium and litecoin
so it will be very obvious at that if that happens if they totally exclude
Manero from from the fun I think it will say something about the privacy aspects
of an arrow that it won’t be able to be argued anymore like they’re not touching
this for some for a reason further because it really is anonymous now again
I’m not a technical guru or anything like this so I don’t know how a
super-duper Naumann Anonymous it is but I’m taking the word of the at the
experts that it saw and the criminals had that is better that again if a
criminal screws up he gets murdered I mean that that’s if it’s not an if he
says this is anonymous and it’s not anonymous then someone’s gonna someone’s
gonna recognize it’s not it’s not gonna be fun for that dude so they on the dark
market or whatever it’s called out there there apparently because I don’t touch
that stuff that’s what they use is the Monaro my long-term hope is that there’s
value no so second layer solution we’ll talk a big coin that is just as good and
if we if we project that further at Bitcoin you can argue that one day
if something like nimble Wimble or some other privacy option is added to Bitcoin
it definitely won’t be available on coinbase
and it may or may not end up forking Bitcoin and in an ineffectively
delisting that coin on a lot of places what if it goes that far what what
Caitlyn law brought up on my show is that if it does get to that point these
corporations you know like fidelity they’ll just for gough their own Bitcoin
they’ll be of a fidelity Bitcoin basically another said that that’s a
very interesting development there I mean as a holder a Bitcoin I’m like sure
let these corporations make their own version of Bitcoin that is uh you know
cool to them that it doesn’t involve crime or whatever try to decriminalize
it your own sure yeah I’ll get your free fidelity coin and it’ll it’ll end up
just like all the other Forks have and adopted I mean that sounds it that’s
what’s out there now yes Chris so actually one thing that’s kind of
related to this is the liquid sidechain the block screen came out it has
confidential transactions in it and they just released it so you were talking
about doing on on there too and actually that’s possible today you know I don’t
know if people are actually using that yet but and that has some of the big
institutions supporting it so um you know maybe they’re open to it but I
don’t know if maybe like what’s only going to be like them trading back and
forth to each other or it was actually going to be open to regular people not
sure but it is it I can I can answer to the as a liquid is not open in the
participation of blog signing and escrowing so the trust model is closed
between a set of people but the user model is actually open so right now the
code and the wallet is not released open source but as soon as it is and I mean I
know it’s already there in few months people can on their own home computer
install a liquid node validate blocks independently but not confirm blocks
because they need featherites and they can transact confidential transaction so
it will be used but about a confidential transaction in liquid are just one of
the example of the privacy techniques you have light in network itself
is a huge privacy infringe ability improvement because basically when you
pay with lightning you cannot see what happens during the payment when you are
writing a paymen Lichtman enlightening you just know we’re giving it to you and
where you are supposed to pass it but you don’t know where it originates and
where where it ends so basically lightning is a huge privacy
layer and anyway are like the things of wasabi wallets they Chow meum KO enjoy
and then you have the things of of samurai wallet so we pull stone away
stone and voila Erica share and then you have like the
mixers like tumble beat and then you have so there is a lot of things I’m not
sure that the consequences will be the listing because I mean right now with
moon arrow that’s what we’re seeing and that’s as you say the proof that one
arrow is scary for for some sound reasons and I agree it should be but if
you think about it physical gold if you buy physical physical call from an
institution that’s not illegal they have to know who you are and where the money
you’re buying gold wit is coming from with KY CML then you buy it on your
store and when you want to withdraw your your gold they will just ask you why
they will make you a lot of friction of the questions but then is not that
they’re twisting gold because gold coins can be pestered anonymous anonymous way
like be rare instrument between people so gold physical gold is completely
anonymous and and nobody is delisting it so I think that right now they are doing
the move against Manero because they’re still confused like for example the fact
of creating a kyc bitcoin will be the typical example of huge confusion
because that means that you don’t understand that if you are forking
bitcoin to make it not private there is no point to have something like Bitcoin
at all because it’s if it’s not private then you can have identity miners and
then you can have basically no mining at all and just identity signers and then
you can have a federation or even just one PayPal server doing whatever Bitcoin
can do even better from an efficiency point of view but worse from a fragile
80 point of view found that freaking like bad people
on fire by the way Jackie what’s that shirt you got on there this is this is
one of the first projects of the people in a virtual lab a million people from
eternity wall and others and my wife Mir created this cam coin bot so you can
follow him or or she or heat on Twitter and it will tweet a new scam coin also
with new white papers and the new I SEOs and new scams of every kind any any few
minutes so sometimes they concerned the grammar is not updated very very
frequently anymore a few years ago it was updated very frequently but it’s
still funny and and now a lot of people is using the scan Cohen BOTS
so let’s buy some coins and follows can coin but pop in my head would you say
you’re a fan of Manero then or me because you are a big Bitcoin guy but do
you want to have associations with it you or do you want everybody to stick
with Bitcoin I I don’t own any Manero and I don’t think I will ever okay
nobody owns Manero and everybody lost the private keys but see I don’t know
Bitcoin as well okay but seriously I even if I was not concerned about my
personal security I will not I will not own any Manero because I think that in
the long run all coins even interesting all coins do not make any sense
in particular Manero is very interesting because it’s an experiment of trade-offs
different than bitcoins that is interesting scientifically as an
experiment there it’s an experiment conducted in a very responsible way so
the main maintainer fluffy pony doesn’t promise impossible technological science
fiction things like many other alkyne pumpers it doesn’t try to get people
buying Manero actually with the prank in New York two years ago he got lots of
people stopped buying Manero because a it’s trying to make it unreliable as an
investment because it is long term arrival as an investment so I like the
the attitude toward Bitcoin they are not lying about Bitcoin about alkynes they
are doing something scientifically interesting because using rain turns a
ring signatures or confidential transaction with bulletproof is
something that can advance science for Bitcoin as well and I think that in the
short run somebody may try to use Mineiro I mean if somebody uses malaria
in the black market I’m not automatically thinking that he
is doing something stupid it may be a point is done correctly well if somebody
is using the cash for the black market is just it’s just following marketing
and he’s doing something dangerous and stupid but with Manero there is and it’s
basically the other the only alkyne with some kind of transactional use except
for Bitcoin right now I don’t think that in the long run eat X it will exist and
I don’t think that or maybe as a collectible but it will not exist as
functioning money and I don’t think that it was the best way to launch this
experiment with with a new coin created because if everybody did that we would
have infinite inflation if the market had accepted it so I think that the best
way would be side chains or proof of burn or for coin so I’ll drop or just as
a fourth option a new minor bit a new minded alkyne and as the last option the
ICO or the or the developer developer
funding so they choose the the fourth best so the the second worst possible
way to do that creating a new minded coin which for me is something
unsustainable and but except for that I I mean I like following the development
of manera I’m interesting if something happens in one arrow I read it if
something happens in a theory or more or dent coin I don’t read it except for
ridiculous I like how you compare a theory of the
dent coin a theory of Josh you actually did a you posed an article recently with
a analyzing the etherium chart now we can talk about charts and all that stuff
I’m not a big fan of the charts but actually a lot of guys are out there so
you follow does all sorts of analysis of charts
he’s a technical but dude you you believe in the real world too Josh so
you I think your charts show that aetherium is not doing too well but what
do you think about real world the theory is there is their use what do you see
for the future of aetherium what do you see for the future Manero Josh I like
the narrow it does what it says it does better than anything else so it’s got a
use case right there a theorems got a lot of competitors whether or not you
agree that they’re on the same par or the same intellectual level is another
story but the biggest thing with etherium right now that I’m looking at
is the inflation the annual inflation instills seven plus percent until after
January when constant Opel goes in at the earliest so that’s going to
continually have mining supply pressure on price the trip based on trend
analysis of technical indicators like it doesn’t look too good
Bitcoin certainly looks better than aetherium in that respect just based on
trend well you know aetherium does have that centralized figurehead though that
can you know come up with some positive if he if he does something right if he
gets in some news stories again he can really uh you know it could pump the
price I mean that that says that’s something to be factored in also
speaking of centralized figureheads and and pumping the price Chris you uh you
you know about you’ve heard like I’ve heard this morning well I’m seeing that
beat Cash’s prices pumped by 7% and there’s some rumors out there what’s
going on Chris with the the four groomers be cashing and oh yeah I mean I
saw a couple tweets I think the same ones most of us out here and there’s
conflicting information I think the main one that most people saw there was that
Roger Vieira was supporting NJ inside of the fork and apparently that made the
price go up I don’t know why I think the other thing I read that was interesting
about it was that there’s going to be no replay protection so that you know
that’s kind of if I held a cash I would be concerned about that that you
know there’s no replay connected for the replay protection and you know I don’t
know we haven’t seen a fork like that in Bitcoin so we don’t really have a
precedent for what’s gonna happen but you know I guess it’ll be interesting to
watch well I think when a centralized figure head over there makes a clear
statement it it assures the market that everything’s gonna be alright this this
will be the winning fork I think I mean and I’ve said this many times on the
show but on November 15th I think they’re gonna end up with two to be
caches three be caches you there’s one called beast – that’s actually a forking
off form it no matter what but in Bitcoin core that’s what my
favorite is Bitcoin core oh yeah that’s a fork yeah I know that’s that’s upwards
there confuses it confuses everyone but November 15th you know fake Satoshi will
go his own way and I think the the miners will go their own way what we’ll
see we’ll see how it goes there the supposes Satoshi’s vision versus the ABC
version of it it’s but I again this is this is all breaking news that the rumor
that that’s going on that king of the trolls has picked the side and we’ll
have to see how that develops now we’re gonna you got to tell us about what’s
going on in Puerto Rico in a second but I do want to talk about the tether or
situation a little bit let’s go back to the I’m just think you’re like it’s just
opening this whole can of worms of there gonna be multiple people in caches yes
who owns most of Bitcoin cash most likely it’s it main Jihan they’re
definitely on the rich list based on their IPO docks my guess is I had only
sold anything since then so they’re gonna make a bunch just on the fork and
if it Forks twice three times they’re gonna make whatever if they sell if
they’re able to sell I doubt that they’re gonna be able to because it’s
not gonna be supported everywhere so there’s hope there’s that
plus there’s the bit main consideration regarding mining power
the coin that’s gonna survive is gonna be the quarter the mining power that’s
gonna be or whatever bit may and besides just because they have most most of it
you know in the Bitcoin cash crowd at least to my knowledge
and then lastly another big holder of Bitcoin cash is the amount GOx Treasury
so they’re gonna have another thing to deal with of like not only are they
holding Bitcoin cash and all the other Bitcoin Forks now they’re holding forks
of forks in past November 15 so it’s gonna be super interesting if they
actually distribute all that stuff Mount GOx up people because they still have
the people’s be cash and so if you Forks and is not yeah they’re gonna own that
too that that’s the that’s the craziness of this of this space and the forks the
crypt of dividends what everyone to call its it adds a whole new aspect when
people are holding your private keys for you they end up owning you more and more
that’s why you got to control your own private keys people I do and now it’s
tough for a link but one last last thing I just throw a link in the chat about
ton the Mount GOx coins you can see like how much they own and whatever anyway
yeah I also was was about to command that one of the reason that people could
be actually by invocation and in in the light of the new declaration yeah one
thing is that a central figure taking a stance maybe somehow reassuring but also
the other thing is that there is this theory about crypto dividend so if there
is a fork coming I should buy the the coin so I will have
to and I will sell one and I will profit actually I think this is a misconception
because the the fallacy in this reasoning is that it’s counterfactual
you don’t know how much the same coin will go up in value without so we know
empirically that bitcoin after half of August was more – more as Bitcoin plus
be cash I’ll drop than just Bitcoin before but we don’t know how much
Bitcoin would have worth so usually when you have the same demand splitting over
a wired a more wider supply and especially when you break network
effects so when you have a network and you break
the network the two networks have less value individually then the I mean
summoned up their value is not is is way less than the value of the whole network
because you have the breaking of the network effects so a fork let’s call it
that way but mostly and I drop of annual coin with people buying the Newell coin
or sell in the newer coin which is our dropped to the owner of the original
coin this kind of thing if it works it should break the network effect and
diminishing the value of the coin even if you see it rising you don’t see how
much it will have risin if not if that was not happening but the strange thing
the paradoxical thing is that now that’s a prophecy that like that that’s the
self that self self or peers because now if people if enough people thinks that
they can buy that can buy B cash in order to wait for their drop and then
have more more be cash then they will do that and then in a way that’s creating
more demand a specific kind of unsustainable demand for the for the
fork so that’s that’s also very interesting another thing that I would
like to add add is that the this kind of drama is not interesting technically
also I mean there’s a Toshi that is at the bitcoin ABC side as very few
developers like that annex but at least they have a couple of developers they
the n change side that don’t have just one one technical guys so what they’re
saying is is just a crazy bullshit from a technical point of view but it’s
interesting socially because somebody like fake Toshi Craig right they have to
create continuous political drama in order to survive if you remember about
that when first the fake Toshi came to present himself as a Toshi
he created a lot of attention because of that then he couldn’t sign of course
then he said i’m sorry i will disappear forever i will not appear any anywhere
on the internet on TV and i will just disappear then when it came back a few
months later he didn’t came back just discussing like yeah there is Bitcoin it
was coming back taking a side in to a debate and a fight because if you
do that you can have at least one part of the debate which will forgive
anything stupid or or fraudulent you did in the past
because yeah you could be a bad person but you are our bad person so we will
forgive you for anything and so crik crik right radicalized anti
Bitcoin positions after the the signature drama only after and right now
is radicalizing this internal debate even more because it needs to radicalize
things in order to stay relevant so sociologically speaking when you look at
centralized alkynes technology is not as much as important as personal dynamics
yeah that was those beautiful summation of the whole the whole situation that’s
going on over there now I will say this in the chat Sam Wong says the sum of the
parts is not going to be bigger than the parts in a bear market and I that’s why
this is going to be interesting to see how it turns out
because I think it will be I think if it splits into two that it will be more
valuable than it was previously and I know it’s it’s it’s or it’s irrational
but that’s that’s just the way it works there and people are starting to buy it
now because they think they’re gonna get to be caches and we’ll never know how
much it would have been worth if there was just one big cache as as will never
know that so okay people are going on you know what
they’ve seen before so we are in a bear market we’re definitely an Allpoint bear
market will be interesting to see if it does split into two clearly different be
caches because of their drama if the sum of the parts will be more than you know
what it was beforehand I think it will I think it will and maybe that could spur
a bull market at all coins again I don’t know
Chris what do you think of that do there Chris what happen
pris images frozen burritos yeah he’s got a comeback we got to hear
about but Josh okay what are you you actually agreed with Sam Josh I saw in
the UH in the chat about some supports yeah yeah so it probably you know
they’re not gonna be worth more certainly at least now but over time who
knows but there’s this this lots of like game theory stuff like where’s the hash
trade gonna go is it going to be enough to support the network is it gonna be
enough to support any other networks one of the exchange is gonna do are they
gonna start listing all these random Forks for no reason I don’t know which
had will support will king of the trolls support this one I want to know
yeah well this will they split the network as far as the catch people I
haven’t visited our rbtc lately but I’m sure there’s some threads about that
well that’s uh let’s move on to another off coin because it’s nothing but an
altcoin and I don’t know why people care about these darn stable
well no Josh you know why they care about the stable cause everybody’s a
trader the tether FUD has gone away well you had a few things to say about
that yeah so really at the end of the day it was bit Fenix’s and tethers fault
for not being forward with all this information and saying like we’re having
a couple of banking at the moment there are delays and wires blah blah blah if
they would have been out front and all that then people would have listened to
that instead of the other people who are constantly flooding everything anything
related to tether all the time always so the market responded by dumping tether
and it’s important to realize this is not the peg this is the market rate for
tether and a market rate for tether dropped below a dollar and it’s still
recovering and the premium for Bitcoin on BitFenix and all the other stuff on
Biffen X jumped up as people were exiting bit fin X because they couldn’t
get wires out that couldn’t get tether redeemed at the time because of the
banking issues so now we just had a telecom thing saying that they are with
deltek Bank they’re in the Bahamas this letter saying they have 1.8 billion that
signed pretty funnily funny-looking
funny-looking signature about a Dell tech person and now today we have an
article Bloomberg saying like Elle tech isn’t responding
to our comments about whether or not they’re the teller bank it’s just like
it will never end but the point is as a trader you need sometimes to go in and
out of stable coins from volatility reasons for volatility risk it’s quicker
to send tether between exchanges sometimes or any other stable coin so
there are there are reasons to have them around but at the same time I tell
everybody don’t be loyal to anyone exchange don’t be loyal to anything you
can move your money anywhere at any time so you know if you feel in your heart of
hearts that tether is dying sell your tether at whatever the market rate is
and take that hit but if not then just wait it out because bit phonetics has
proven itself as far as being anti fragile in some respect based on their
past history all right jacquimo is Bitcoin your stable coin
what’s your what’s your take on this monstrosity well first of all I will not
call them stable coins because they are pegged to fiat and fiat is everything
but stable and from the in the long run and especially is it’s not stable in the
short run when we have political crisis so I will not I don’t know if euro will
be stable as a purchasing power it is right now in the short term but for
example dollars lost 97% of the purchase power over a century so I will not call
that stability but assume that this Fiat coin are stable in the short term and
you need those as volatility happens during I don’t know bearish markets or
or or two volatile markets then I we don’t understand except for one reason
why you shouldn’t just use the internal stable coin of every single exchange
which is the USD account of the same exchange so if you go to an exchange you
sell Bitcoin for USD and you keep USD in that exchange that’s the same trust
model of the circle or tater or other kinds of stable coin the only difference
could be and that would be reasonable the legal arbitrage to bypass Kawai caml
so if I buy coin from coin base and they sell and I have dollars I cannot move
dollars from there but if I buy tater from from theater company I have to do
KY caml and everything so I’m regulated but then in the secondary market I can
transfer this stuff in an unregulated way because Omni is is kind of liquid so
I can do that with good plausible deniability for tater and when somebody
comes back to redeem with theater they don’t have to look at the history and
say no you cannot redeem because in the secondary market this coin has been in
the hands of julian assange so I’m looking forward for a better
technology to do that because with Omni is trivial to the anonymize taters and
so it’s not good but with something more good like liquid the confidential assets
or maybe RGB project or other projects with more fringe ability that would be
the only interesting use case for me legal arbitrage or another form of legal
arbitrage which will be the regulator’s they are not regulating the Fiat coin
because they are just too confused to understand what they what is going on so
if you’re moving so PayPal is a Fiat coin so when you’re moving dollars on
PayPal the regulator’s are going to go to PayPal and ask them to do all the
anti-money laundering bullshit or Shari let’s say practice paperwork’s but the
world was paperwork and and so why they are not doing the same thing with circle
or with coinbase the answer could be because they still don’t understand what
what the hell is going on and they will eventually so you are like a window of
opportunity of regulatory arbitrage in time or maybe you have it in space like
PayPal cool move points without regulation in Puerto Rico or Arno or
Liechtenstein or remote or whatever but not in the US but it’s easier to move
points in the secondary market in the US and the primary market only in this
particular heavens so that would be geographical regulatory arbitrage which
is interesting so that’s the only reason to
use Fiat coins one thing I’ll one thing I’ll add quickly to that is many of
these exchanges don’t have the USD listed on the exchange so the workaround
is USD T that I mean that’s the bottom line there all right so let us let us
hear about Puerto Rico we’re all very curious tell us tell that’s going on
there Chris and the reason is because there was a law that was passed and I
think it was 2012 called act 22 and basically it allows US citizens to meet
there and you can not take a couple games so it really makes sense for a lot
of bitcoiners potentially to move here because you know you could the good
thing about here is like you can move here and you don’t have to give up your
US citizenship but you can still avoid the taxes also when you exit the u.s.
you get hit with an exit tax so by moving to Puerto Rico that avoids that
so you can kind of wait and see if Bitcoin goes up and sell it at that
point I’m the long-term builder myself but the
thing to keep in mind is that everyone’s going to sell at some point even if you
die your errors are gonna sell so you know that’s kind of that was my behind
it still have any questions well I do now you you’ve been there for a little
while now have you met some more Bitcoin people Howard leet the meetups there the
meetup that I went to there I mean is like most of the people were not from
Puerto Rico originally they were they seemed to be interested in Puerto Rico
for the same reason you were yeah I need to go to more of the meetups I’ve gone
to a couple of them and met some cool people just kind of chit chatted I’ve
actually seen a few people just around town that I knew from meetups and stuff
in the US that happened to come here so that was been interesting and I think he
meant sequel to yeah yes a say to the world who you saw sitting at the
Starbucks that time red cream actually I’ve seen them like three times actually
so yeah he’s around here there’s other people I know there’s a bunch of people
that live here I think you met someone from Seattle
that you mentioned so you just kind of do see people that you either knew or
like kind of knew of I wouldn’t say that happens a lot but you know it happened
to me a few times so yeah there’s there’s some people over here
there’s also Brock Pierce who lives in Old San Juan I haven’t run into him but
there’s a bunch of people in that group they’re over there but yeah I found that
I think a lot of people did kind of move just for the capital gains and you know
I mean me personally I’m not really I’m not going to start an altcoin or
something like that or you know I mean maybe at some point I’ll think about it
starting a company there’s another tax law called act 20 which allows you to
start a company in Puerto Rico the where you can pay 4% tax which is pretty low
compared to what you pay in the u.s. at least so that’s a possibility but I
think more of the people especially in Bitcoin have come just for the act 22 to
you know not pay capital gains tax particularly like the people that are
getting trading and stuff like that like Bret for instance you know it really
makes sense for for that you see it’s not just in Bitcoin but in in any
trading because it’s short term and long term
yeah well that computer ship has moved there and he’s no big house the I was
like an infrastructure they’re like electricity and water all that stuff is
that like back to normal so I haven’t had any problems with electricity but
after the hurricane I like everyone I meet they say there’s these horror
stories about like having their electricity off for five months and
stuff like that um I live in San Juan in the closer that’s the biggest city so if
you live in like the biggest city areas the impacts will definitely be less
usually on the country you better have like your own solar panels and battery
backup generators and stuff but yeah in the main city um they did
have water off for like three days or four days or something but you know
after a few days they got that that’s the really critical because you can you
can survive without other Seifer for a while but water you can’t
last very long so yeah it just depends on where you were so yeah gotcha
I enjoyed my time there and in terms of safety concerns if you’re from Baltimore
like me you’ll find it uh you’ll find it Pleasant there I mean there’s there’s
some empty buildings there but again if you’re some hipster from uh some east
coast city or post-industrial city you’ll feel quite comfortable there in
uh in San Juan it’s I mean there’s again there’s some empty buildings or whatever
it’s and some people can’t take that you know they think that’s ghetto but it’s
Beach and everything it was it’s it’s in interesting development we’re gonna keep
our eyes on it and I Kris you’ll have to return and you know to the show and tell
us and anything that’s that’s changing over there but it is it is interesting
there definitely people taking advantage of this of this law so let’s uh we’re
here at the end of the show now I wanted Josh to chiming real quick you know I’m
not a TA type of guy but give us give us some some Bitcoin tea a type of stop
that you think people might be interested in sure so the levels I’m
looking at are real simple for Bitcoin below 1500 is a massive massive cliff
that’s gonna head us towards to 3 K eventually if that happens the other
cliff up I’m looking at is 6800 270 100 based on the 200 in the cloud for
anybody knows what that is but so we’re just a really tight range volatility is
low everybody is feeling the low volatility and the the sideways just as
we did if you were here for like April 2016 it’s very similar to that you you
mention though that the 5800 did that’s that’s the Hoffman line be a hundred
billion dollar valuation when Bitcoin is around that price it’s a hundred bility
you think that means anything or is that coincidental there I haven’t heard of
that so that they mean something may not may not mean something of we talked
about like psychological levels a lot in trading and that could be a
psychological level for who are looking at that sort of stuff
which is perfectly reasonable I remember all the headlines when we broke 100
billion that was huge yeah definitely I don’t know it’s a good question though
yeah yeah that’s say hey man that’s something I I you know the detective I
like this the real world stuff man it’s buddy yeah that’s what you do the charts
the magical charts you’re looking at them again people remember one Bitcoin
equals one Bitcoin don’t get funded out by charts and stuff but Josh josh is
rocking it and he again he’s linked to below and everything so let’s let’s get
everybody’s conclusionary remarks we’ll start with you Chris then Josh and then
we’ll end it with Giacomo was he’s always got lots of fun stuff to say so
Chris can anything that we left out anything you want to bring up oh no I
mean I think we cover a lot of stuff thanks for having me you know I’ve been
a fan of your show for a lot of times really participate thanks thanks Emily
follow him dudes he’s awesome yeah you know it’s a guy I’ve met in person it is
on the show that’s you know it’s real life and that’s awesome Josh your final
thoughts anything that was left off I don’t think so there’s there’s a little
bit about metallic Sting’s gonna step away from the limelight a little bit not
necessarily like programming or being a part of the community but he just wants
to be less of a central figurehead which i think is a good thing you know that
people are gonna give him crap for either way oh yeah I don’t have anything
else I mean just sit tight your trailer and that’s it but when you’re already in
this centralized central figurehead type of position you cannot do anything if
you if you talk more they’re gonna blame you or if you if you talk less they’re
gonna blame you so you’re you’re stuck and that was the same thing to happen
with Charlie Lee if he sells now they’re gonna believe if he sells in the future
you know it’s that’s the big difference you know with Bitcoin that the founder
is and we’re tightest it’s you know it’s come full circle now this show we start
talking about Satoshi well and talk about Satoshi
and there’s no there’s no drama with him because he’s doesn’t exist anymore
Giacomo tell us yeah yeah tell us what we left off here man anything what
you’re doing in Italy I told I move on my businesses bit seller
Italian part was bits alone so still pretty close to Italy now I’m Italy with
my family because I’m sick and I’m with my daughter with my parents but so I’m
in Italy right now but I’m living and working his bit so on Italy itself is a
very it’s an off topic very interesting argument that could play some role in
the next global financial collapse so looking forward to see if and when and
how it happens but it could be interesting for Bitcoin as well as
consequences so but but there’s not a specific reason to talk about that right
now I think we covered pretty much everything about Vitaly there was also
the interesting song on stage during Def Con in which the singer made all the
people sing a song which with a lot of rules and Commandments and one of the
commandment was don’t I see oh and that was very rich from a community that
started with a super big ICO and that then proliferated basically only as an
ICO platform with the leader on stage posing as pampers of the main I all the
main icos before the death the DAO basically metallic face was promoting
actively a lot of ICO receiving the tokens in exchange and so the ICO and
enabling any other ICO is not is now singing song about donatio which is very
very funny in a pyramid kind of way like we are the top so we can but you are the
base so you cannot anymore sorry we already did it for you
so be happy and seeing and that’s that was very yeah very much so
keep it keep it positive hey I do I bring up Switzerland
so Switzerland’s more crypto friendly than Italy you’re trying to say yeah
then Italy yes definitely it’s everything friendly more than Italy
Italy is a mess for any kind of business especially innovative business
especially financial business Italy is good for vacation
but this bad bad bad for business but Switzerland was appearing as a crypto
paradise filter a few months ago but now they actually started to understand what
that means from the point of view of icos consumer protection laws and
antimony laundering and all that stuff so they’re Street restricting more what
you can do it what you can do so Switzerland is now it’s interesting like
all my clients are in Switzerland they are banks actually enabling their
customers to buy Bitcoin directly from the bank so the banks are becoming
exchanges in a way just just in a very hidden shadowy a local way without a lot
of visibility but if you think about that that makes sense because what is
the next a Bitcoin exchange a centralized trust base the Finnish
Arabic regulated Bitcoin exchange like coinbase it’s a bank so why not leave
the same job to your pre-existent insured and super regulated bank since
the work of a centralized exchange so far it’s just the work of a bank so I
would prefer Swiss bank over coinbase at least Swiss banks have some tradition of
of attention to financial privacy and some money historical at least not
recently while coinbase David doesn’t have that
kind of tradition so if I really have to choose I will go with the Swiss banks
over canvas interesting well I I I’m glad you’re gonna be on the ground now
in Switzerland that’s that’s good I’ll get more
information from you about what’s going on there
remember bitcoin is your own private Swiss bank though so a man that that’s
the way I look at it so awesome show today dudes thank you very much everyone
remember we do this show every Friday to this we could pick one show it varies I
think next week Simon Dixon is going to be on there’s your little preview we’re
working on that anyway I post news show here every
single day of the year otherwise it disrupt meister calm
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week and bitcoin shows and of course tomorrow night is the beyond bitcoin
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4 thoughts on “This week in Bitcoin- 11-2-2018- 10 years of Satoshi, Monero, Zcash, Giacomo Zucco”

  1. Interesting show as usual though no mention re BPrivate fork when talking about privacy. Is it dead?

    Anyway, your guest Josh said he was not aware of the (Andy) Hoffman Line, so I have copied and pasted a comment about it from ss59 from a few months back as I thought it’s a really good comment!

    ssm59
    A bit more generational knowledge coming at you. I have more than a decade on Andy he is dead straight about the hundred billion dollar market cap. While his insight In the crypto space is remarkable, the idea actually goes back to Peter Lynch in his 1989 book “One up on Wall Street”. In the book Lynch explains that amateur investors have a distinct advantage over institutional firms due to the fiduciary limits imposed by the SEC. Most companies that achieve Fortune 500 status are only available for the large investment houses in the final phases of their initial growth curve. The individual investor has the chance get in and ride the curve from below micro-cap all the way up making far better returns than the professional traders. BTC is the first financial instrument that anyone, be it a kid with lemonade stand money, a college student with some part time income, or a retiree with some left over from their social security, can invest at the ground floor. This must have goaded the big boys to no end. For the first time in history, they were closed out while John Q. Public could get in at the ground floor that used to be reserved for VC’s. Now that BTC is finally available to them there is no way they will let it slip below the floor. Since they were cut out of the rise to $100B, they will use their financial power to pump and dump in a effort to shake out the weak hands gathering as much as they can at minimum prices while jumping in to keep the market cap stable. Regardless of when you got in, this ride is just starting. Hang on and ride the curve baby!

  2. https://www.collective-evolution.com/2018/10/26/veteran-md-drops-bombshell-at-michigans-5g-small-cell-tower-legislation-hearing/?fbclid=IwAR3VKwgQ-vWz0Qt7qGH2m3fVJ4qdI7wrCazSN5HHbg8WT_CKFgjcx9BOY4k

  3. well, the comment was delivered in a very good sentence. But in my opinion maybe the meaning is not relevant to the situation

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