Patreon: Problem & Solution: Dave Rubin & Dr Jordan B Peterson

well Dave and I are here today to talk about patreon and so I’ll start we’ve been engaged in lengthy series of email exchanges with all of the people in our network and no one is happy at all with what’s been happening and so we’ve been determining what our options are and we looked at subscribe star but it looks like PayPal decided to cut funding out from them and so it doesn’t look like moving to an alternative provider an alternative commercial provider that’s out of our bailiwick out of our control is going to be viable so Dave why don’t you describe what we talked about today yeah well first I think we should just make it very clear for everybody how significant what happened to Carl Benjamin sargon of akkad is it doesn’t matter what you think of him or whether you agree with him or any of that stuff the banning of him for doing something that was not on the patreon platform that wasn’t even done on his channel because of a word he said where he was using the word against the alt-right or the neo-nazis or whatever you want to call them he’s a massive move of that line of what’s acceptable now there’s all sorts of debates we can have and we’ve had them of what lines should be if there should be lines at all but the fact that this guy got booted with no chance of recourse with no warning just just like that it’s just an extension of everything else that we’ve all been talking also and also given that it’s also the case that he didn’t break patrons rules of engagement the ones that they stated and that conte had talked to you about the fact that that wasn’t going to happen and that patreon hasn’t responded well to this well look look he jack conte came into my studio in my home and said he said a phrase that I had never heard before maybe you had heard it before manifest observable behavior so you had never even heard that phrase before right I thought I thought maybe this was just something that went past me okay now of course manifest observable behavior mo be mob you can’t I mean that’s it there’s a there’s a really but but so the point was that it had to be about behavior and then in their Terms of Service it also had to be about what was happening on platforms so at every firewall here of what would have been acceptable patreon failed and they’ve put us in a position where look I told I called you last Saturday and when this was really catching fire and I said you know patreon is about 65 to 70% of my Reb that’s I have a company now with with employees you know full timers part-timers I was actually considering deleting it right then and there no one in their right mind would do no business person would do and I’ve taken big risks in the past you know before I was on patreon we were at or at EBI me and my producer in my record we all quit our jobs lost our health insurance all of it to join patreon so I’m not I like taking risks but then I realized alright we have to figure out a plan and that’s exactly why we’re doing this right yeah well and we would have moved faster but we well and I did set up as subscribes to our account although I never quite finished setting it up partly because subscribe stars seemed to fall apart almost immediately under attack and and also it wasn’t obvious that I also read their Terms of agreement and it wasn’t obvious that we weren’t going to be just in exactly the same situation again and there’s only so many mistakes you can make before the mistakes start to become fatal so we wanted to come up with a serious and and and and stable solution and I’ve been working on for months literally for months it’s been six months I’ve been working on a system to allow authors and other people who engage publicly on intellectual issues to interact more effectively with their readers and viewers and listeners and it occurred to me this week that with a bit of modification that that can serve exactly the function that we’re hoping it would serve so what we’re going to try to do as fast as we possibly can is to set the system up on a subscriber model that’s analogous to patreon it’ll have a bunch of additional features which I don’t want to talk about right now and I don’t want to over promise but the system is is because the system is new but we’re gonna try to get that rolled out as fast as we possibly can so and we have a number of people who are interested in hypothetically interested in moving their their subscription service over to it Dave and I are very seriously planning to do this as soon as we can do it in an intelligent way and so yeah and you you know by the way one of the interesting things here we haven’t talked about this but I’m guessing your experience is just like mine the amount of emails that I have received and of course tweets and everything else but mostly emails from developers from investors from regular people from engineers I mean just anyone going this is the one because you know the issue with all of these free speech things is it’s like you don’t want to swing too early before you realize that the problems gotten to critical mass ask but then most likely you’re gonna swing too late the lines will have so far that we may be on the outside of them and that’s why this one I think was so interesting because Carl you know years ago five or six years ago when I started waking up to what was going on with the left obviously and all of the free speech stuff everyone said you’ve got to talk to sargon of akkad he’s a guy so this is the guy that’s been ahead of all of this sargon ii was like he was big he was very helpful to me when I was first under attack you know and he’s a brave guy and and so and it’s a real mistake what patron has done to him and and as I said everybody in our network is extremely upset about it like we’ve been sending e-mails back and forth well probably with 30 or 40 people and so as Dave said earlier we wanted to make this video today to let everybody that we’re communicating with know that we have not been sleeping on this front man people are trying to figure out what to do so this stops happening and and so and we have a good plan and and we’re gonna try to implement it as as soon as possible so I would ask everybody who’s listening to be you know reasonably patient imagine that this will take somewhere between a week and a month to sort out properly all we’re going to try to get something up in the next week hopefully before Christmas if we can’t manage that you know because when you implement something like this there are technical complications that might emerge that you don’t foresee but I don’t want people to get the impression that we’re taking this lightly or lying down and that we’re not looking for a permanent alternative because we are and I think we can come up with a better alternative and that’s the plan yeah that that’s exactly what I would say I would just add that it was like we were waiting for a moment you know we’ve watched these doors slowly closing on it all of us whether it’s Twitter whether it’s Facebook who’s getting banned who’s getting shadow banned payment processing everything else and we are taking this as seriously as possible of course you know Jordan who’s working harder than anyone on the face of the planet somehow you managed to also partly build a platform over the course of the past year in the middle of all I knew that this we knew that this was lurking in the background and that this was going to be a problem and Dave you’ve spent lots of time talking to investors and developers about building alternatives to these platforms that seem to be willing to throw their weight around in an increasingly arbitrary manner but it’s not like it’s a simple thing to do people want somebody to say enough is enough and I I mentioned this in a live stream I did the other day but you know I’ve watched my patreon dropped we’ve lost around 600 patrons I think about 5,000 bucks a month but in a weird way I’ve actually been inspired by it because I’m watching yeah I agree for themselves so it’s like on one hand people are emailing me and they’re saying I’m dropping my patronage and I’m really pissed and it’s not about you and I want to support you and on the other hand my business side is going that’s not great but you know but we will solve this thing I I’ve lost a thousand subscribers and I feel exactly the same way it’s like well they’re telling patreon to go to hell and you know it’s it’s not so good for me on the financial front although that’s not too big a catastrophe at the moment they’re they’re taking the right stand and and encouraging us let’s say or encouraging someone to do something about this so anyway ah that’s what I like I like what you said if we can just ask you guys to be reasonably patient we’re talking to everybody that you can think of and some people that you can’t think of we’re gonna fix this we’re gonna yeah well we’re gonna or at least we’re going to do our best to fix it there’s gonna be some bumps along the way man because we’re now we have to speed this process up too so we’ll have to consider this a beta version but at minimum we hope to provide an easy way of switching to a new subscription service within the next very short while so and thank you everyone for your content patience and your continued support and your attention and your thoughts and your reaction to all of this and and it’s it’s very much appreciated and it does help us I would say maintain motivation to continue doing this constantly you know the fact that I have all these patreon subscribers certainly is one of the reasons that I try to put my youtube channel I wouldn’t say first and foremost because it’s had to take a backseat to this lecture tour but man its way to hell up there on my priority list absolutely and it gives us all sorts of flexibility to do all sorts of things it gave me a little bit of flexibility to join you on this tour so I’m incredibly humbled and appreciative of everybody that does that Jordan I will I will see it in a couple days in West Palm Beach please ladies stake I will take you out first good good good well I found a good steak place here so I’m looking forward to seeing you Dave and Ewing the two array because we’re gonna continue the tour in in California yeah great three venues in California and January and then the two in Australia New Zealand we’re gonna add additional dates and hopefully Seoul and Singapore maybe the Philippines we’ve got all sorts of additional things planned we doing anything on the moon well not so far but but I have some connections to you long bus okay man I’ll talk to you soon we’ll get this up right away great okay bye bye

100 thoughts on “Patreon: Problem & Solution: Dave Rubin & Dr Jordan B Peterson”

  1. Although a novice on this issue, it seems that payment processors are a key problem here. Getting that straight will help all the boats. Another issue is that I run across nice, conservative websites all looking to build content. I'll forward them to whatever you start up. The more bloggers you have, the more varied the content, the better it will become.

    After all, the left is waging a background battle to limit (if not eradicate) anything deemed an adversary viewpoint. And recent edicts from the UN and EU indicate they will attempt some leverage to eradicate content deemed opposition.

  2. I'll be happy to create content on a new platform if these guys make one. Also curious if this will come with a video share and streaming program because we need an unbiased one to combat what we already have. I know I'm an unknown but you will have my support big fan of all these guys.

  3. All bullshit until Jordan pulls his patreon account down. He cares about money, not principle and the drama around tugging on victimhood is profitable.

  4. I think I may have come up with a good name for your new platform! "Sticks and Stones". I think most folks are aware of the old saying "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me"….."Sticks and Stones" would be a great name for a platform with strong free speech ethics.

  5. just dropped my PATREON account , im small but its important. cant wait until the new platform launches. Jordan, love your video, they helped me a lot in my dark days,.

  6. God bless you guys. The only logical solution is to take matters into our own hands.

    It's clear that the establishment is losing grip on their narrative and instead of pivoting or changing course, their solution is to purge and censor… We're seeing the beginning of the internet transitioning into a platform more like cable T.V. and it's a horrific prospect.

    It's sad that the general public isn't rallying against the cause, but with low-IQ people, they only care if it's THEIR views being censored, but it's easy to see the writing on the wall.

    It's only a matter of time before Dr. Peterson is de-platformed for not subscribing to the transgenderism agenda.

  7. Providing crowd-funding for free-thinkers won't be as simple as launching a free-speech version of Patreon. You need to defeat Paypal itself. Assume first that Patreon is not de-platforming on its own initiative, but simply following the dictates of their payment-processing overlords. While there's currently no direct evidence supporting this hypothesis, Paypal (along with Stripe) was exceeding quick to defend Patreon's share of the crowd-funding market by banning SubscribeStar. The timing smacks of collusion. Whatever crowd-funding system you bring to the market, just make sure it doesn't rely upon third party payment processing, lest it be but a temporary reprieve.

  8. Thank you both for taking action. My frustration with the censorship of the authoritarian Left has turned into a seething rage because I feel so powerless and small.
    The Overlords in media, politics, technology, and entertainment are determined to ensure that the will of the people never again interferes with their global agenda.

  9. We agree that the left wing and right wing have their loudest, radical voices. We agree these people do not speak for the entire groups in question. We have observed their ability to taint others.

    But what no one has stated is that in order for the left and right wing radicals to go to war, they must wage it in the center, where the majority lays. The only way one side can win over the other is by laying waste to the place of balance.

    And that is how evil prevails.

  10. Don't think it
    Don't say it
    Don't think it

    Don't say it
    Don't think it

    Don't say it
    Don't think it

    Don't say it
    Don't think it

    Don't say it
    Don't think it

    Don't say it
    Don't think it

    Don't say it

  11. If you guys ever make a competitor for patreon i will 100% sign up. I never liked the practices of Patreon, for me they always felt fishy even when they launched, there was always a few little slip-ups in their terms of services even from the start.

    So would happily migrate over and hope in the future you could make something that is friendly to all views. What patreons "team" seems to be doing is more witch hunting than anything else.

  12. CCG isn't involved in this sort of content at all, but educational and custom training software and a small number of games, but we mass-mailed our subscription-service clients through Patreon (~ 78% of the total) and our UTrans clients who use PayPal (over 85% domestically) that we would no longer be using either service.
    To my knowledge, there were only two complaints, and more than 600 letters pledging support even if it comes to personal checks while we shop for replacements.

    Any service that covers either, let alone both, will be a huge success unless the kingpin figures already positioned repeat their anti-trade violations to bar your access to processing.

  13. It seems clear that the transaction processors (VISA, PayPal, et. al.) are driving the policies of the facilitators. A Patreon alternative, in order to remain independent, will need to include a crypto-currency exchange and transfer depot (crypto-bank) so that the processors cannot exert their ideology by denying their service to those they wish to silence. Crypto transfers make this possible, it just needs to be integrated in a way that makes it easy for patrons to provide crypto support.

  14. I m a retired combat veteran , law enforcement officer and former college instructor, who followed your academic and philosophical journey with great interest. I have not been a Patreon subscriber, but I will support you and Dave Rubin, when the new platform is ready.

  15. As a web developer; there are a number of payment gateway alternatives, that you could potentially use. But who can say with any certainty, they won't pull the plug also?

    Main stream alternative? WorldPay

    Alternative stream? Bit coin, or some derivative. Decentralised, and with the potential to make the funds anonymous through pooling. If the platform gains enough momentum, how could the main-stream currencies not engage?

  16. Good luck, you are going to need it. Read some articles here:.

  17. Crypto currency based payments may be an interesting option considering some of the pressure was apparently coming from financial platforms. A currency of the people 🙂

  18. I wish I could speak to JP about the new platform, and give him the creative of the last 12 years in the experimented rules of role play and multiple writers for a story line, of course is based on fiction and all its verses as in history and myth to sci-fic and more, but it helps to inspire in order to shape in real life much clearly. Intellectualism is fine, but many of us already think freely to go around wanting people to brake through and match an unexplored currency, that works.

  19. You ever think maybe Patreon is running the show and running Nazi's off because they're COMPETENT and not just tyrannical. Yeah…Sargon should be allowed to be a nazi on his own time. What about that Nazi that worked for Northrup Grumman that got fired for being a Nazi in Charlottesville? You guys gonna support that dude too? Cry for him? Sub for Santa him?

  20. According to the nytimes, Carl Benjamin did have a chance to appeal. However, he declined to do so. It was his choice to leave Patreon in the end. However, this was not the case for a lot of other people.

  21. It is very clear what is going on here. George Soros backed groups are directly targeting the CEOs companies. Here is an excerpt from an article which lays out their tactics. ” The group set up a website that allows supporters to flood the inboxes of CEOs of companies they decide are culpable. Such “mass lobbying of individuals in the private sector” is “unprecedented” if the CEOs do not tow the line then they will go after them. Read the full article here.

  22. And if you want to talk about cynical people would you do and you want to talk about being a smart man which you do you tell you something there was a man named CS Lewis who outweighs You by

  23. What is happening with facebook, Google, YouTube, Twitter, etc…and their picking/choosing what is acceptable and what isn't and administering self serving "justice" is despicable. I cannot wait for the alternative, hopefully an entity that will be self auditing as to respecting free speech 100%

  24. When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    This is how great movements begin. People are fed up. Leaders have stepped forward. Will it gain momentum or will it stall?

  25. I have a comment and question for either of both of you. I'll preface my question by saying that I have much respect both Mr. Rubin and Dr. Peterson. I've read 12 Rules and watched many hours of YouTube videos including lectures, interviews, and debates. I agree with Dr. Peterson's adamant opposition to compelled speech law and so far everything he's said and stood for that I know of, as well. So here goes the real preface and question: Patreon is (still, I believe) a privately run business. How is what they're doing any different than the local bar having a sticker on the door that says "No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service," or "We Reserve The Right To Refuse Service To Anyone?" Yes, Carl Benjamin is living in a one saloon town, so to speak, and once he's refused service he'll have no other watering hole to drink from, but that's his tough luck and the right of the proprietor, is it not? I don't see how this is a violation of either free speech laws in the US or even an affront to mankind's general right to free speech. This is a case of a customer violating the rules of Patreon. He has every right to use a different service, or create his own, for that matter. I'm not tech saavy, but I think I could set up my own website and accept credit card payment within a few days. It wouldn't be as sexy and convenient as Patreon, but it would work. I'd like to get your take on this. (This was also posted on The Rubin Report channel)

  26. Jordan, I'm so appreciative of what you're doing for everyone. I am glad that you're looking to tackle this issue.

    In the event that your efforts are sabotaged, and you don't establish an alternative, please consider, and remember, the SAFE Network. It's not yet completed. Should you not figure out a solution before it is completed, it will be the solution to our communication and privacy issues.

    Thanks for everything that you're doing!!

  27. Fakenews. Sargon called a regular chat homophobic & racial slurs & then later claimed they were "alt-right".
    The host of the show he was on has stated they were his regular audience, not "alt-right" people.
    In his tirade, Sargon reacted to being called an "upper-class twat". This is not an insult used by alt-right people.

  28. I would love to see a whole new right-wing ecosystem completely separate from the left and corporations like MasterCard and visa. That would be crazy cool

  29. @Jordan B Peterson : focus on that Governance layer, we believe in you and trust that you can build a kick ass governance process. I made a quick video on the blockchain side that I hope helps clarify the pain points and a small ask that we start having more conversations about payment networks and pain points around them.

  30. I was considering Patreon as a future
    funding source for my new Youtube channel and other creative pursuits
    until the Sargon of Akkad issue came to light. I'm now keen to try
    the alternative you collectively conceive and engineer.

    I'm also wise enough and experienced enough to know that patient and
    diligence is required to ensure that any alternative is stable and
    functional enough to be an attractive viable option for any
    creators and thinkers who wish to engage publicly and feel strongly
    about freedom of expression. Thank you for taking up this challenge
    on our behalf, I wish you the best of luck.

  31. Have you guys spoken to Tim Berners-Lee (the creator of the web) about his latest project Solid (a platform to decentralize the web)? I really do think you should.

  32. No offense we already have a solution it is Ethereum, Litecoin, Dogecoin, PIVX, Monero, Bitcoin, Reddcoin, etc etc. Every payment processor is going to have the same issue eventually, and that is your going to have to bridge it to a bank, and you are at their mercy.

  33. Jordan good luck trying to make a Patreon alternative because chances are you will be shut down like the rest of the alternatives have been due to Paypal and MasterCard controlling the keys to the kingdom along with the governing hate speech laws everywhere except in the U.S. Unless you can create an alternative payment processor AND you keep it domestically inside America ONLY, you're gonna be crap out of luck in the legal sense. Even though hate speech is constitutionally protected in the U.S…. it isn't pretty much anywhere else including places like Canada. Honestly you can't blame Patreon because unless they JUST want to function in the U.S…. they are pretty much shoe horned into laws that govern hate speech dictated by the global community. So unless you somehow pull a magic hat trick on this eye sore don't give people this false hope.

  34. the only solution is a decentralised one, crypto was always the answer, the question is when will people see whats been sitting in front of them the whole time

  35. it looks like two forces of existence are communicating with each other. one is robotic one that is dull like lizard consciousness and another one that is free and opposite of lizard one. with all this shit on the world at least that i observe in tv looks like bad is wining. but i think it's illusion, because wherever light is it will always shine threw. there might me some damage to the light but i can't imagine that light will lose. from the darkness came the light so there is no other way than light. bla bla bla Something wonderful is going To happen soon

  36. Listen- merely breathing back and forth over the schism leads inevitably to its perceived and actualized resolution. They use the same single tool that is the only tool you or I have.

  37. I just found "Sargon of Akkad" great Youtube channel at 3am this morning and subscribed. Then this Video was recommended. Been watching you and Dave Rubin and Ben Shapiro for only 6 months. Wish you all the best!

  38. Hold on isn't the other guy supposed to be taking JP out of context and trying to bring him down like a fool and calling him a bigot for stirring young men, I'm confused

  39. Does anyone know what Peterson's and Reuben's alternative subscription service is called? Did it ever materialize?

  40. I cancelled my Patreon account last year, upon seeing JP do the same has inspired a tremendous degree of hope in me and as a mark of encouragement I am now keen to donate to this channel.

  41. content providers with large followings should dump the standard social networking sites. go to Eric Trump and ask for guidance on how to create a new content platform & a new payment services platform. he will be able and willing to make the appropriate connections to make this happen. let your viewers know where to go and we will follow.

  42. I think Dr. Peterson is one of the few people on YouTube I have respect for when it comes to discussions about free speech and many political sub-topics. Most if not all the other YouTubers at some point blame ALL the political left and liberals in general, using a very broad stroke.

    They don't seem to realize their are people such as myself on the moderate left, who don't agree and oppose the radical activist left. But Dr. Peterson does make that distinction in the videos I've seen and I greatly appreciate that!

    Because I can't help what the radical left does, I can only help what I do.

    Anyway, I don't even if anyone's going to see this comment at this point, but I still thought I'd add my thoughts. Dr. Peterson, not certain if you'll see this comment either, but if you happen to I really appreciate your work and I hope you and your team are able to get that Patreon alternative up and running. 🙂

  43. Here's the thing: Patreon is a privately owned company. Not a university. Not a tax-payer funded entity. If you truly support freedom of speech and freedom of expression, then you should support Patreon's freedom to choose what they express and what they don't express. Whether or not you agree with the specific things they are choosing not to express isn't the issue. If I own a company, I get to choose what it expresses. If you try and control that, then you are trying to control freedom to choose.

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