Tongtong: Hello, I am Bi Tongtong, Co-founder and Editor-in-Chief of PANews. Today we are honored to have Da Hongfei, Founder of NEO, and Jun Li, Founder of Ontology, with us on the show. Would you like to say hello to our audience? Da Hongfei: Hi, I am Da Hongfei. Li Jun: Hello everyone, I am Li Jun. Tongtong: I’d like to begin by congratulating you. I know that your two companies have recently announced a partnership on building an open cross-chain platform. Could you tell our audience what’s the cross-chain platform like and what roles do the two companies play? Da Hongfei: Let me correct one thing first, we are not two companies, but two open-source projects. And technically it’s not a platform, it’s a protocol and a set of specifications. And the two open-source projects can achieve interoperability by following this set of specifications. Errr…So the point of this partnership is to develop an interoperability protocol. We are actually testing the water right now before we release the protocol. The protocol will be completely open and neutral and any existing blockchain can join this interconnected network based on this protocol. Li Jun: Both projects have been researching the cross-chain system. The reason is that it is very difficult to realize all businesses or collaboration on a single blockchain. That’s where the cross-chain solution comes in. The two projects have had some cooperation in the past and this time the partnership goes deeper in technology. As the initiator of the interoperability protocol, we hope the ecosystem will continue to grow and connect more systems. Tongtong: What are the technical advantages of this cross-chain protocol compared to other high-profile projects, such as Cosmos and Polkadot? Da Hongfei: Do you want to answer this first? Li Jun: Ok, there are several different aspects. First of all, a big part will be cross-chain asset transfer. Second, the protocol can also realize some business collaboration. Because in the future, besides asset transfer, which is one of the basic functionalities, business collaboration is also a big part and will require different protocols and collaboration process, so we are doing innovative improvements and design. Another difference is the implementation. For example, a purely Hub solution is systematic and a network system. But our solution will like many separate chains similar to Hub in the form of BFT so that it can strike a balance between efficiency and decentralization. Moreover, it is trustworthy and supports cross-chain interaction. In the future, it can also support multiple business types. This is the main difference. More details will be covered in the upcoming technical white paper. Tongtong: Da, what do you think? Da Hongfei: I think there are two main differences. The first difference is that what other cross-chain solutions do is to give you a piece of land where you can build new houses and their technology can connect these houses, whereas what we do is you already have a house, or you have already built cities, we build the roads that connect the houses or cities that are already there. So personally I think our model will have a bigger impact since we can connect existing public blockchains. This is one of the differences. The second difference is what Jun Li has just mentioned, the cross-chain protocol we are developing can do much more than just supporting cross-chain asset transfer. The protocol can also ensure the consistency of cross-chain transactions, which means what happens on Chain A will be synchronized on Chain B, Chain C, or Chain D. In addition, this means smart contract on one blockchain can call the smart contracts on other chains and can be executed in an orderly way. That is a big technical difference. Just as you said, after the testing, the open platform will be accessible to more public chains who can then use the SDKs you provide. I think we are the first ones to try this. What we want to see is that more public chains will join us to make the cross-chain protocol better and more complete after our trial. Tongtong: So you wish to see more public chain joining in, it looks like a cross-chain alliance as I see it. Da Hongfei: Yes, we are just developing a prototype and we hope other public chains can join us to improve it. Li Jun: This is an open protocol and everyone can join in. Perhaps in the future, non-blockchain systems can also join in. That is why we define it as an interoperability protocol, not a cross-chain protocol so that we can see collaboration on a larger scale. Tongtong: I see. New blockchain concepts are springing up every year, for example, since the beginning of this year, we have seen DeFi, Staking, and now cross-chain. Which one do you think is a better track? Many people believe the cross-chain solution and DeFi have great potential. Da Hongfei: In fact, we have talked about these concepts years ago and the cross-chain concept has been around for 2-3 years. I remember, during NEO’s first DevCon in January 2018, we have already talked about cross-chain, decentralized exchange (DEX), and Stable Coin This requires a process. You need a cross-chain system to trade multiple types of assets, which need Stable Coin to enable trading pairs between these tokens, and then you need DEX to support the order book. We’ve talked about this before. Li Jun: In general, I think the blockchain industry is still in its infancy. We have come up with some new concepts as well. But it is impossible to gain an established advantage once you propose a new concept. What matters more is your ability to make the concept a reality, including your engineering capability, team operation, and ecosystem growth, which all require long-term development. In addition, the market will also be closely watching you, that’s why the influential and reputable projects in the market today are those whose capabilities in these aspects have been recognized. Hot concepts such as cross-chain and DeFi into a reality, those who can succeed are the ones who can make these hot concepts happen We have, to a certain extent, proved our execution capability in the past 1 to 2 years and for NEO, perhaps even longer. So the market and our partners know that we are capable of moving this forward, which I think can attract more partners to join us. Tongtong: This reminds me of something you said before. “technical challenge may not be the most difficult part, instead, the real challenge lies in project operation and execution.” Mr. Da, you just mentioned decentralized exchange, I remember you said in early 2018 that centralized exchanges will see its influence waning, and the future belongs to decentralized exchanges. Do you still hold the same opinion now? Da Hongfei: Yes. I still think this way. Now we call it DEX, it’s, in fact, more like a non-custodian exchange. If you read AntShares’s (NEO) white paper, you will see there is a mechanism called “superconducting transactions”, where transaction settlement is completed on the blockchain, but the process of matching orders occurs off-chain by an institution who can support the order book impartially. This model is actually what’s behind Loopring, IDEX. We have thought of this model long ago, but unfortunately, we did not have enough time and energy to do it. We are happy to see many community members are doing these things. For example, Switcheo on NEO is a similar transaction mechanism. Tongtong: But there are still high barriers to entry for DEX. Is there still a long way to go before DEX becomes massively adopted or even exceeds centralized exchange? Yes, I think there is still a long way to go. What’s good about a non-custodian exchange is that there is no counterparty risk so you don’t need to worry about if the exchange shuts down or the assets on the exchange is stolen If in the future everyone can use the same set of cross-chain protocol and specifications, and if there is a complete cross-chain protocol, then the liquidities of all chains can be put together and the market will no longer be fragmented. Tongtong: Ok. Here’s a question for Jun Li. In our last interview, you revealed Ontology was partnering with PAXOS to launch PAX Stable Coin on Ontology, could you share with us the latest progress? Li Jun: PAX has already been launched on Ontology and we have open-sourced the protocols. PAX has been integrated into many exchanges and wealth management applications. Some of the dApps on Ontology are using PAX as a stable coin measurement. The application of stable coin is based on your ecosystem. As our ecosystem grows, whether it’s PAX on Ontology, or other stable coins on NEO, will find their applications. Once again, the application of stable coin is determined by your ecosystem. With the cross-chain protocol, we believe the ecosystem will continue to grow. Tongtong: Speaking of the stable coin, everyone has been talking about Facebook’s Libra. With the announcement of Libra, many traditional financial institutions and regulators quickly find out what blockchain and stable coin are. I’m sure both of you are following Libra closely, what do you think of it? Do its advantages outweigh the disadvantages or the other way around? It is more like a collateral mechanism. Moreover, the collaterals are basically in fiat currency, or its variants, such as bond, so it may not be able to directly replace the fiat currency on a large scale, at least a strong sovereign government will not allow it. Maybe it is possible in small countries, if it is what the people want. In addition, it could run on payment channels like third-party payment, such as Alipay or WeChat Pay. If this becomes a reality, Libra could offer a faster payment channel for third-party settlement that can serve various business scenarios globally. On the other hand, since at the moment, its collaterals are fiat currencies or sovereign bonds of developed countries, Libra could hit the sovereign currency systems in the countries where the currencies are less strong. But if Libra wants to replace the fiat currencies in everyday or business scenarios in countries like China and the US then the obstacle will be not technical, but political So I think Facebook will not try or be allowed to do that in the short term. I think the way facebook will do is to provide a third-party payment channel and a store of value to hedge against inflation in some small countries. But it has to be launched first. Tongtong: So do you think it’s a good thing or bad thing for the industry? Since it takes the form of consortium chain, it is definitely a good thing for the industry. Even if Facebook launches a centralized token, it is still a big thing. But Facebook decided to build a consortium chain, which is a good thing. Facebook is doing this in a more open way and many mainstream industries or regulators are beginning to realize the advantages of a decentralized governance model. Of course, it might have some issues as well. But overall, this is a positive for the industry as it helps put blockchain under the spotlight. Tong: Mr. Da, what’re your thoughts on that? Since the Libra white paper is published, many blockchain projects have been eager to join the bloc. In your opinion, can blockchain startups play a role in the Libra project? Da Hongfei: I think it is very difficult. If you look at the 20+ founding members, you can see that most of these organizations are American multinational companies. So I think they have a strong preference. So far, I haven’t seen any Chinese companies or organizations joining the Libra Association, nor do I know if Libra will accept. In addition, I think Libra is using the information infrastructure, Em… what’s the best way to put it moving financial services onto information infrastructure to avoid entering the financial infrastructure in different countries. Each country has its own legal system so it is very difficult to break into their financial infrastructure and financial regulatory system, So Libra takes a different approach. It builds a native and small financial system on top of the blockchain and use the information infrastructure to enter different countries and jurisdictions. I think this is a very clever approach and perhaps the right approach. In the future, financial infrastructure should be built on the Internet and a lot of rules and conditions can be set down by codes. instead of being under a nontransparent and traditional model. Tongtong: Understood. We’ve just talked about cross-chain solution. It is about asset transfer on the blockchain and also about business synchronization. But I remember Mr. Li Jun has said that Comparing to the cross-chain, how to connect on-chain and off-chain is more important Just as NEO’s vision of a smart economy and Ontology’s slogan “Ready for all Businesses” I think what you mean by this is the real adoption of blockchain technology. I believe you both are experienced in the blockchain industry. You may have confronted the challenges of blockchain adoption and must have been asked a lot about this. Do you think blockchain adoption has been speeding up over the past two years? What do you think are the new challenges for adoption? Da Hongfei: I must admit I haven’t been focusing much on blockchain adoption in the past two years I think we’ll still be building the infrastructure in the next 1-2 years. Let me draw an analogy. Everyone is looking for a killer app. But I think when the time comes, we will see 10 or even 50 killer apps springing up at the same time. What we are doing is building a new city and the infrastructure in it. The road linking the old city and the new one is narrow and full of roadblocks and obstacles. But once the infrastructure in the new city has been built and the obstacles have been overcome dozens of killer apps will emerge. I think there is still a long way to go. Li Jun: I think we’ve talked a lot about adoption in the past two years and we are clear about the general direction. However, its progress will not be linear or gradual. It will be more… explosive. The chances are we may not make huge progress over a period of time, but when a major breakthrough is achieved, as Da said, the growth will be exponential. For example, even if running a single use case could be a possible breakthrough. But the prerequisite is the infrastructure, including technology, protocol, and the cross-chain ecosystem we are doing right now. Another part of the infrastructure is the legal system in different countries. I read the news about asset securitization in Germany this morning, which shows that the legal system and regulation are slowly open or being formulated. When you can securitize assets, perhaps other things will follow. Once the time is ripe, the growth will be exponential. So I think the infrastructure and the legal system are currently under construction, but we are moving closer slowly. I think we are slowly making progress and we will still be building the infrastructure and the legal system in the next two years. Tongtong: Technically, which part do you think needs to be improved in the infrastructure? Da Hongfei: Jun, you can talk about this first. Li Jun: As I just mentioned, the first part is the interoperability. Second, security and stability are necessary to keep your assets safe. It’s not only required on the technical and protocol layer but also in the decentralized and distributed operation and maintenance. You need to prove your system is stable and secure enough. This is from the technical side. In addition, since your system must support different legal systems, for example, identity, data, and KYC process, the system must be flexible enough so that it can support decentralized applications or even anonymous applications, and also compliance applications, etc. Once you have the flexibility, you can then fit your system into the regulation and policies. So these are the two parts we need to work on. Tongtong: Mr. Da, what do you think? Da Hongfei: Technically, I think the layer is not enough most applications are still on Layer 1, on the blockchain. But I don’t think all applications need to be that decentralized. If you and I want to make a transaction, and there is no disagreement, then there is no need for all the nodes on the blockchain to verify the transaction. It’s unnecessary. Their involvement is only needed when there is a dispute after the transaction. It is similar to today’s state channel Layer 2 solution, which can also achieve scalability. There will be better performance and lower latency. In the meantime, since it is a different channel, to a certain extent, it can also solve the issue of privacy protection. I think we need more layers, and become more modularized because one single chain cannot solve all problems and different consensus mechanisms and different governance models are suitable for different businesses. The cross-chain protocol can connect the public chains and the Layer 2 solution or other solutions enable encapsulation and run some dApps on them. These dApps will not run on a single chain. They will interact with many chains and networks, which is similar to the models of today’s Internet applications. They are not exchanging information with a single server. Tongtong: Right. , what you said coincides with what we discussed with AWS last weekend. They also think that perhaps in the future many dApps will not run on the main chain, instead, they can run on the cloud, on the shards, and on Layer 2. I think building the infrastructure will take a long time. Da Hongfei: Yes, I think this is a good thing as it gives us more time to focus on what we love to do. Tongtong: Both of you have seen the ups and downs of the blockchain industry. At the beginning of this year, you said the industry was overvalued. Do you still think so? Da Hongfei: I think it depends on how you see it. If you assess the projects based on based on how much value they have created, then all the projects are overvalued. But if you look at their potential, I would say the market hasn’t seen their full potentials. So it really depends on how you see it. If you have to draw a line between our current value and the future value and ask me where we are on this line right now, I wouldn’t be able to tell you, but we are definitely not at a high point. Tongtong: Jun, do you check your own project circulation and the market value from time to time? Li Jun: Not much, may sometimes. As we do not do trading, so relatively not that often. Tongtong: yeah, it’s about holding the values. Li Jun: It’s a process. But in terms of the estimated value, as previously said, if you use the traditional profit evaluation approach, the blockchain projects will have a high evaluation, or from a different perspective, for projects that have a certain cycle, they have reached a certain level of recognition and influence. Influence itself is a value. As in the future, when you continue to launch new businesses and new technologies, the influence can help you expand the business. For companies with the same market value, it is possible that its influence is only amongst a small group of clients, let alone the global influence. From this perspective, the influence, popularity, and community consensus of the project is a type of value. So it’s hard to define this purely as a bubble. Da Hongfei: To add on that, I think from relative evaluation, Chinese projects are lower, comparing to overseas projects, In reality, it’s even lower. Tongtong: So you think our tech is very hard-core, but the value is underestimated. Da Hongfei: Yes, there are many reasons for it. Tongtong: I see what you meant. During the ups and downs in the market and when you were starting your business, do you have a moment where you feel really low? How did you overcome it? Da Hongfei: Em… Let me think. A low moment? Em.. I cannot really think of a moment I felt really low. Tongtong: let’s put it another way, when you confronted a big challenge? Da Hongfei: It’s been good, our development is quite linear, we don’t have too many radical ups and downs. For instance, you rent a whole floor office and then discover that the industry is not good and you fire half of your employees. No, we haven’t gone through that. When we first founded Onchain with Li Jun, we only had slightly over 10 employees, whilst now we have over 100 employees in the office. It has been a relatively linear growth. We haven’t fired anyone. Yeah, we have experienced a linear growth. Do you have any low moment? Li Jun: Not really. I think when I joined this industry, it was the lowest moment for the industry. At that time, we didn’t have a cryptocurrency market. Bitcoin exists but not many speculations around. As for blockchain company, it was hard to find funding. The team was small. We thought it was the lowest point, the development after that, there was a bit of luck involved. I would say from any perspective the status is better than before. In this way, you will have a more stable mindset. When you think about the things you wanted to do when you first joined the industry and you are still doing it now. I think it’s a normal process. Yeah, to be objective, both of you are the lucky guys in this industry and also with the dividend of this industry, the company is also growing continuously. I don’t know if you two have anyone you admire, could be entrepreneurs or leaders in other industries? Da Hongfei: I didn’t have anyone special in mind but have been actively looking for one. Tongtong: Looking for one? Why? Da Hongfei: There is indeed a power of belief, which will generate motivation. I think Elon Musk is great, if I have to choose one as my idol, I would choose him. I was going to buy a painting of him and put it next to my desk in the office, so when I get lazy, and he will be looking at me. Tongtong: You could also buy a Tesla. Jun, what about you? Li Jun: Elon Musk is also one of my idols. Since Da has mentioned it, I will talk about Elon Musk. I appreciate Elon Musk not because how many ideas he comes up with, but because I think he is someone who can put theory into practice. He can sleep in a factory and focus on the manufacture of a vehicle. He can learn a lot of things by himself. He can also propose a concept. This type of talent is rare. I think the comprehensive ability of him even exceeds Steve Jobs in some way. Not very easy to achieve. Also, he is willing to not just invent 140 characters, but do some very fundamental innovations. Tongtong: Last time in an interview with Li Jun, you mentioned that the competition in this industry is not just about technology, but also about market and company image. These are also very important. So, I would like to ask what’s your opinion on TRON? Da Hongfei: TRON? You’ve seen lots of news about TRON recently, and don’t know which one is reliable. From my opinion, I think TRON is very good at marketing and relatively weaker in technology, but they are working on that. I don’t have a very strong… Em…How should I put it It is, of course, different from my value system and uses a different approach for doing things but I try not to judge. Tongtong: I see, what about Jun? Li Jun: I have met Justin Sun many times, but I don’t know him very well. A lot of genes of TRON do not exist in us. I’m not saying we can’t do what TRON does, it’s just we have different positioning. There isn’t really good or bad. But as Da said, their marketing operations efficiency, especially their execution capability is something we can learn. Different people treat marketing operations differently. There may be controversial discussions, but I think first, you need to look at the good points. Second, you need to stay neutral to understand better. Da Hongfei: Of course, our opinions as aforementioned are based on public information, but for what’s under the table, which we are not aware, and I think we should leave it for the authorities to check. We do not have the capability to make any judgement. Tongtong: Another question, if I may ask, earlier this year, I noticed there were personnel changes on the senior management level in NEO. When I interviewed MR. Leon Li, from Huobi Group a while ago, he has mentioned that what he is still learning now is staff management. Have you confronted any challenges on this? Da Hongfei: Yes. Speaking of how to manage an organization, actually, we have been learning. Reflecting on why senior management level staff left, I think, when an organization is growing at a relatively fast speed, we need to appoint someone to lead the organization. We may have promoted a mid-level manager to a senior executive, at the same time, we did not provide enough authorization and training or coaching. Then it will cause problems, first, whether he or she has adequate authority? Second, the work he used to be responsible for and the work he is doing now, or the decision-making process is very different. Whether there is enough capacity to take the job? Also, during this process, if the internal communication within the team is not sufficient, then it will lead to unclear decision-making mechanisms misunderstandings, and low efficiency etc. When the situation becomes worse, necessary solutions need to be taken. In the end, people will think that instead of working within the operations of NGD or NEO, they would prefer to make community contributions outside the organization. It’s not about an individual’s capabilities, but about whether his skills, capacities match the position. I’ve been reflecting on this, I think the biggest responsibilities lie in the top management level, rather than those who choose to leave. Tongtong:Tong: Jun, what do you think? Li Jun: Management, of course, is a subject you should learn for life. For Ontology or Onchain, there has been some adjustment of personnel during the development of the project and the company. With regards to our talent strategy, we are not trying to be a huge team, but a team full of elites, like Navy SEALs. Our talent strategy this year is that each individual we are hiring for each position will be above the average level of that position, this will create challenges for talents at each position. But the benefit of it is that, the chemistry amongst them will be far greater. We can already feel the chemistry, and this is a direction we are pursuing. At this point, there will be some personnel adjustment. This is a challenge for the organization and managers. We are also in the process of learning, improving, and integrating. Tongtong: I understand. In my opinion, both NEO and Ontology are very international projects, are there any barriers or problems you have encountered in cross-culture communications? Da Hongfei: Definitely. Culture differences, language barriers, different values. You just need to find a solution. There isn’t much that you cannot overcome. Tongtong: Which countries are your full-time overseas employees based in? Da Hongfei: As for NEO, we opened an office in Seattle, US, called NGD Seattle. It is mainly responsible for developer experience, tools and documents for developers to use. The local team is mainly composed of former Microsoft managers and experienced developers. Other than that, we don’t have full-time employees. Li Jun: Ontology has 2 full-time employees located in the US and Europe. They are experienced in this industry. Apart from that, it is more community-based. In terms of international communication, our BD and Marketing team is quite good at it. Most of the teams have an overseas educational background or come from overseas. However, for tech experts, especially in China there is still a lot to improve in terms of language and communication approach. Comparing to overseas tech specialist, the skills and vision of Chinese tech experts are not necessarily inferior to them. It’s about learning how to better express and explain their expertise. How to build a technology faith-based community is what we all need to improve. Da Hongfei: Sorry, I forgot to mention, NGD has a representative in South Korea. Tongtong: Currently, the Korean market is highly valued. Da Hongfei: I haven’t been to Korea for several months. I think Li Jun was in Korea recently and participated in a TV show. Li Jun: yeah, I was there for the TV show. The Korean market is quite popular at the moment as the policy is not that tight and investors in Korea are more interested in investing in new products. That might be the reasons why people think it’s a popular market and many events were also held there. Tongtong: Da, you are not traveling a lot now, are you? Da Hongfei: Still quite often, I travel around 5 to 10 days per month. Tongtong: 5-10 days. So, do you still have some spare time to develop your own hobbies? Da Hongfei: I think yes, in any case, we have 24 hours a day. Tong: What will you do when you are free? Da Hongfei: All kinds. Eat. Tongtong: Eat? Da Hongfei: For instance, I loved going to hotpot for a while, very spicy hotpot, which even made me have loose stools every day. Tongtong: different types of hotpot? Da Hongfei: I like very spicy hotpot though. If I am on a business trip, I normally give it a go at famous local restaurants. Other than that, I don’t have any special hobbies. Tongtong: So other than eat and sleep, you work all the time? Da Hongfei: Well, not all the time. Tongtong: What about Jun? Li Jun: I read a lot. But recently I spend more time exercising. Tongtong: Everyone is saying that when the market is not good, you need to do more exercise. Da Hongfei: The market is good. Tongtong: Yeah, the market now is good. I noticed that, since last year’s 3am blockchain group trend, Da has kept a very low profile and even quitted some groups. Da Hongfei: Yes, too many groups, and you don’t have time to check all of them. You get drowned in all types of group messages, so I quitted some groups. However, I’ve been invited to many new groups recently, so it’s hard to quit for all. Tongtong: Does it mean you want to retire? Da Hongfei: No, not yet. Tongtong: I want to add one more question for Li Jun. You mentioned earlier that you will read books in your free time, what books you are currently reading or any books you would like to recommend? Li Jun: Recently I have been reading books about financial structure. Books that I read recently, em… I reread two books. The first one is called Debt, it’s about the 5000 years of history of debt. The other one is called Account, which talks about the changes in the accounts system and mentions blockchain towards the end of the book. Very interesting books. Tongtong: Is it because of your previous work experience in China Financial Futures Exchange that you prefer books about finance? Li Jun: It changes from time to time, it’s mixed, no specific direction, it’s just recently I read more financial related books. Tongtong: Da, do you have any books to recommend? Da Hongfei: I don’t read many books, but I do a lot of fragmented reading. I read relatively fewer books. However, there a book on my desk at home recently, a book I reread. The first time I read it, it was more of a glance through, it’s called The Paradox of Choice. It talks about the theories and mechanisms of voting, and Arrow’s Impossible Theorem. The reason for reading this book is because I am thinking about community governance models on the blockchain. Different voting mechanisms will lead to different results. So, I picked it up from my bookshelf and reread it. Tong: I see. As per our previous conversations, the progress is quite smooth, I was wondering how do you overcome a problem? Some say they find answers in books, just like you mentioned about community governance. Da Hongfei: Yes, you can. For instance, you read some blogs online, like articles on Medium, I think most of them are well-written, including many good contents related to company management. so with the limited time, I would go for contents that are relatively shorter. Tong: Ok, I think I have asked most questions for today. The last question is for both of you, I noticed that there are many traditional industry professionals, some of them are serial entrepreneurs who are also eager to try to get into the blockchain industry. Do you have any suggestions for them to start a new business in the blockchain industry? Da Hongfei: I think Ontology has worked with a few. Li Jun: I think it’s more about combining your previous experience, instead of putting all the previous experience aside. Your previous experience is your biggest advantage comparing to other entrepreneurs in this industry. Try to integrate your previous experience into a decentralized service and on blockchain may bring you a surprising result. So do not throw away your previous experience, integrating or combining them is a better approach. Tongtong: Da, do you have any suggestions? Da Hongfei: I would suggest not to be too idealistic about the application implementation yet, as the infrastructure is not yet complete. You may have to be prepared for a long-term struggle in this direction. Do not draw the battle line for too long or have a too optimistic short-term expectation. Tong: I agree. This is all for today, thank you Mr Da Hongfei and Mr Li Jun for joining us.