Hi guys from New York! Today I will talk for you with Eric Martindale! Eric is a founder and chef developer behind Fabric. He is a seasoned entrepreneur; has created and sold several companies, also in the crypto space. And he is one of the key developers behind some of the crypto projects. So, meet with me Eric Martindale! And stay with me till the end of this video. There will be a contest and something to win. [Music] Hi guys from New York, from Consensus 2018. Today I will introduce to you an industry veteran in the crypto space you probably haven’t heard much about. But I’m pretty sure you will hear a lot in the future. This is Eric Martindale from the Nakamoto Group. Eric, tell me how and when did you find out about Bitcoin? How did you come to the space? Yeah, I was actually reading the Internet forums way back in the day and I saw this conversation about this weird Internet thing called Bitcoin. Way back in the day means like 2000…? Originally… Yeah, 2010 is really like the beginning of when I first started looking at it. And I’d say 2011 is when I really started investigating and learning more about it. So, did you have a cryptology background or programming background at that time? Yeah, I was a software engineer and I’ve done virtual currencies in the past. So, dealing with gaming systems… You know, of course like World of Warcraft, EVE Online and all of these virtual currencies. So, I kinda had looked at Bitcoin with a little bit of a skeptical eye initially. And then when I looked at the technology and kinda figured out what’s going on I was just “All in”. So, back in the time I talked to Tim Draper. And he actually got interested in Bitcoin also because somebody bought a virtual sword for his son for 40 bucks. And then he said “If you pay for virtual goods you need something like virtual currency”. And then he stumbled on Bitcoin. So, it was similar start with you. Very similar. I was an entrepreneur and we were building virtual worlds platform at that time. So, Bitcoin came across my plate because of that. Okay! So, 2010 but actually you haven’t invested in Bitcoin at that time, right? Or you didn’t get involved in Bitcoin? Yeah, in 2011 I decided to purchase my first Bitcoin. I was mining as well but eventually I just decided to purchase some Bitcoin. But I never paid for it with Fiat currency. I bought it with Second Life Linden dollars through a virtual currency exchange at that time. But at least what was the price of Bitcoin at that time? Ohhh… I shouldn’t say but it was less than a dollar when I made my first purchase, yeah. So, quite a nice return on investment, right? Yeah, sure! Especially that you haven’t actually invested dollars, right? Right, exactly! It has been quite nice for me. I’ve been self founding my company for the past couple of years using proceeds that I earned. So, it’s been quite helpful. Okay, so you are an entrepreneur yourself. Then you started developing on the blockchain platform, on the Bitcoin platform. Yeah! Tell me about your current company. About the Nakamoto Group. What do you do? Sure, we are building a decentralized operating system called Fabric. And it’s a what we call layer 3 system. You can build applications that are run by the network. There is no server. It’s completely a peer-to-peer way of running a traditional-style application. But without having an authority or single point of failure that operates those contracts. How does it compare to normal cloud systems? So, a normal cloud system is typically operated by one company that manages the data center. In the case of Fabric we are creating what’s called an information market or market for computation. Where the contracts that you’re creating for running these applications are offered up to the whole network. Rather than uploading your application into a data center and calling it the cloud I would argue that a system like this is much more like a cloud. Because you’re basically broadcasting what you need done. And then people are bidding on that order and you’re getting the cheapest possible order from a much larger network. For me it sounds similar to Golem. Sure, yeah! Or SONM? Yes, very much so! So, what’s the USPs of your project or how is it different from the other approaches? Great! We’re using something called secure Multi-Party Computations. So, the ability to divide a program into multiple sub components. So, no individual actor actually has visibility into what’s taking place. It’s a mechanism called homomorphic encryption. So, that’s one of our focusings, one of our differences. But we’re also explicitly focused on using Bitcoin as the currency. So, we’re not trying to lunch our own currency. I don’t think that actually makes very much sense. Technologically we wanna use something that is secure, something that’s already established and then that will be currency for our system. Okay, so you don’t plan an ICO or something like that? No, I definetely don’t plan to do an ICO. So, if later time of point you want to raise money, would you raise through a traditional VC? Yeah. Maybe not a traditional VC per se. We would do something like an equity rounds. We have much longer-term vision of offering our expertise, offering our services inside of an ecosystem that we’ve created. As opposed to directly benefiting on top of the technology itself. In fact we plan on declaring all of the code public domain. As opposed to copywriting or licensing it. Okay, before we were talking about Roger Ver loosing his money in Bitcoinica, in the first big hack, then in MtGox. What about you. Did you suffer through any of these hacks? I’ve lost more Bitcoin than I care to admit but not because of trusting a centralized exchange with my money. You trusted yourself too much! I trusted myself too much. Yeah, I’ve lost keys. I’ve had multi-sig accounts basically where other people have lost the keys so it was unrecoverable. I’m typically a pretty self managed person so I’ve learned that lesson and now I’m much more careful and more meticulus about managing it on my own. Okay! Before you were talking about a community you’ve built. This comes out of this gaming world, right? That’s right. Can you tell us more about that? Sure! So, when I was actually just out of a high-school I decided to create a collaborative gaming platform where multiple players can come together to build something very akin to the old-school MUD, this Multi User Dungeon where you can construct a virtual world. And move around in that virtual world collaboratively using just pure text. So, it’s very similar to writing code and just building these virtual worlds. So, over the past 14 years almost we’ve grown this community of about 150000 people now. They are all building their own little virtual worlds using the platform that I designed. And this is gonna be one of the very first applications that we will be migrating from the old centralized system which I have built into Fabric. Which is the new decentralized system that I created explicitly for this purpose. Okay, but for this system… I mean for people to be able to bid on that are you using a special currency or Bitcoin for that? How does it work? So, we actually have what’s called a Bitcoin Bonded Currency. So, you deposit Bitcoin into the smart contract. And then inside of the smart contract you can call that currency anything you want and the rules for how that currency operates are governed by the smart contract itself. But it’s completely bonded to an underlying Bitcoin. So, at any point of time… So, is it like a colored token on Bitcoin? Yeah, it’s like a Colored Coin but we’re not coloring the coin on the original chain. We have a layer 2 system for managing the actual payments. And there’s all sorts of rules that can be applied… So, you actually issue the new currency but you don’t do ICO, you don’t raise money for that but it’s somewhere… So, how can I get that currency for example? Only within this system, right? You have to purchase it from someone else who already holds it. Or you would deposit Bitcoin into the contract and you would have a representated asset inside that system. Okay, now I understad. So, it mirros the Bitcoins that are held somewhere in this contract, right? That’s exactly right. Okay. Let’s talk about you because you worked, as I see, for Blockstream for a while and this is a pretty controversial company. Or it became a very controversial company but you left in May last year. So, before the Big Bang. What were the reasons you left actually? Sure, I wanted to work on Fabric primarily and I’ve been working on this technology for a couple of years now. In fact, just before I joind Blockstream I was planning on launching it as my own company already but I got a very interesting offer from Blockstream. So, I decided to join. I was mostly focused on Elements while I was there which is Blockstream’s sidechains platform. But it seemed like the technology wasn’t quite where it needed to be. Enterprise and industry adoption wasn’t happening in the way we expected it to happen. Just more and more I saw what was happening in the crypto markets with ICOs starting to happen like in very big, big ways. And I felt that there was just a better way to do it. So, I felt rather than be constrained by what was happening at Blockstream and all of the noise and the politics that was going on… I felt it was best to strike out on my own and just go ahead and focus full-time on building a real solution to how to build decentralized applications Okay. Do you work as a Bitcoin Core developer? I don’t call myself as a Bitcoin Core developer but I follow all of the Github commits. I follow the mailing list. I follow the conversation. I haven’t made any proposals. I participated on the mailing list but I haven’t submitted any code yet. Okay. But you’re a Bitcoin maximalist from what you said. Tell me, I always get these arguments that there are so many currencies that are technicaly better than Bitcoin, more performant. So, why only Bitcoin? So, having followed Bitcoin for so long I’ve seen so many of the technical conversations taking place. About most of the ideas that some of these other companies are starting to try to built. And what I’ve seen is very reliably good engineering decisions being made by the people working on Bitcoin. And also the right philosophical approach of being very careful and conservative about designing a system that manages people’s money, right? So, ideologically I’m really aligned with that conservatism because it’s other people’s money. When you write code you have to be very very careful. Because you’re responsible for that. So, you’re not very fond of these Bitcoin forks for example, right? No, I am in favor of their right to fork, if they fundamentally disagree with what’s happening and they have an ideological split, I’m very strongly in support of their right to fork. But I have not seen a ingle fork to date that matches engineering prowess and strength. And resilience of the main Bitcoin chain. Okay. There are apparently projects in the crypto space that are interesting. That are maybe not coins but that have intrinsic value, right? Sure. So, what would you see as the interesting, exciting projects right now on the market? Sure, I’m pretty excited about MimbleWimble. MimbleWimble is an another anonymously proposed protocol. It’s a more space efficient way of managing a blockchain but it also coincidentally is explicitly private. Meaning that a MimbleWimble based blockchain would grant fungibility and privacy to users of such a system in a way that Bitcoin today does not do. That’s probably the single project that I’m most excited about. Some people are launching their own blockchain based on this idea called Grin. And it hasn’t launched yet but they’re working on the implementation. I am of course excited about Lightning. Which is a way of using these payment channels to do instantaneous payments as opposed to waiting for block confirmations on a block. So, I’m excited about that. I’m excited about a couple of Mesh Network projects. Althea, I think they’re doing an incentivized mesh network which is something I’m pretty passionate about being able to pay people for participating and building the physical components of the network. Yeah, exactly. So, they need like these physical devices like people need to carry them around, right? Yeah. Okay, what about broad adoption or mainstream adoption. How do you think, how far are we from the mainstream adoption of crypto or Bitcoin? I have a very long-term perspective on Bitcoin overall. I usually say 40 to 60 years for a full transsition. So, that’s a very long timeframe but I think Bitcion and crypto has started to enter mainstream consciousness and people are aware of it. But the technology is not yet at a level where the average person can interface with it. And have it be more convenient than what they’re already using. What do you think are the 3 most important obstacles for mainstream adoption right now? The number one by a large margin is user experience. And this is one of the reasons I’m excited about Lightning because it offers a much more compelling user experience. Because it offers instantaneous payments. 2 is obviously liquidity and access to crypto. Right now most of the crypto for the average person is locked up behind KYC, AML, Behind like some sort of exchange. And Forex is already pretty difficult. And with the regulatory capture associated with going through an exchange. It’s really violating of people’s rights and privacy, I think. Absolutely So, I think that’s another huge barrier. And 3 is education. The education aspect. People barely understand how money works already and now they’re introducing this whole new system that has all of these different properties. The education aspect is just extremely challenging and difficult. Yeah, but apparently Bitcoin itself has its problems, right? Scalability, fungibility. So, I think these are also some roadblocks that need to be addresed, right? Sure. How and when do you think will these be solved? I actually think that as far as scalability question is concerned I think we’ve made a significant progress in the past 3 years So, things like signature aggreatation, parallelisation of validation. All of that stuff in the core Bitcoin protocol has been widely improved. Initial blockchain sync time for example is another big, big scalability question. The network can’t really scale effectively if it takes too long to download the blockchain from zero. And validate it and do so very quickly because ultimately in order to scale you’re gonna need more full nodes. You need more people to route these systems. We’ve also made significant progress on the payment side. So, Lightning for example. I think we’re probably about 2 years away from seeing a proper resurgence of this consumer to merchant payment mentality. People wanting to spend digital currency and use digital currency for all of the strengths and benefits that it provides. Unfortunately I think the technology is just about in time with that. So, the Lightning mainnet for example is I think almost over 2000-3000 nodes now. So, that’s really exciting and the final portions of figuring out exactly how routable payments are going to work in such a system. That’s taking place as well. So, as the technology matures, I think over that 2-year timeframe. I think we’re pretty much in step with: “Okay, now it seems like the technology and the general population will probably be ready in about year to two years”. Okay, but this is scalability. What about the fungibility. Is Lightning Network like working in the opposite direction of fungibility? No, I actually think Lightning adds properties of privacy which is really nice because you can do payments. And there is no visibility into what that chain of payments was. At once you settle. What happened in the meantime is invisible. So, you dont see when it is settled, who paid whom, right? That’s exactly right. You see just the balance on the Bitcoin accounts, right? Yeah. But I think fungibility is a very serious concern right now because there is no good solution. We’ve made major advances in confidential transactions for example. Bulletproofs which is another mechanism of using like Pedersen commitments and so on to have fungibility and totally confidential transactions. MimbleWimble is another very exciting technology but I think fungibility is like the last big step towards Bitcoin becoming cash. Bitcoin is not a cash until it is fully private because otherwise… I mean how you choose to spend your money is free speech and it’s not cash until you can spend it in a way that you choose without oppresion. It’s a very serious challenge but fortunately there is incredibly smart people working on it and we’ve made a lot of progress. But the question of how do we get that merged in and which is the correct technology are the open questions. How do you see this process playing out between States and cryptocurrencies because not every country is very fond of cryptocurrencies. I mean there are governments trying to surpress it, to limit the access, KYC and so on. AML of course. So, how do you see it playing out? I think it’s a direct challenge. They come into direct competition. The objective of a government or a state is to govern their citizens, right? And hopefully they all believe that they’re trying to do good for their citizens. But it comes into direct opposition with this idea of having a private money. So, I think that most of the larger countries will probably try to resist the adoption of this or restrict the adoption of this as much as possible. But as just like with the crypto anarchist manifesto. It’s now that the cat is out of a bag, the technology exists. It really cannot be stopped. There will be some countries that are smart enough to realize that it would be in their best interest to adopt and support these technologies. Because it’s better foor their citizens. But how large institutions think they typically build up a lot of momentum it makes them very myopic. And resistant to that change because they have to give up power. Yeah, of course but are you optimistic about crypto winning that conflict or how do you see the future? Yes, it’s inevitable. Crypto will absolutely win and it’s a matter of time. Like I said I’m on a long-term timeframe, 40-60 years I think for the full transition. But I’m fully convinced that digital currency is basically the only way forward for a truly free society to exist. Okay. I think paradoxically, the opposition of the major countries or the bigger countries may actually help the cryptocurrencies because the adoption curve is growing actually faster than the technology as you see, right? So, we need somehow something to limit that growth for the technology, to catch up actually, right? Yeah, I think the needs will kind of encourage the technology to grow faster as well. Most of the smart people that I know working on this stuff… they’re impassioned, they’re enriched by this idea, of seeing all of the adoption. Of course, a lot of them are also very concerned that the misaligned promises that some of these projects have been making. Like making claims that are just things that can’t be done, are just 10 or 15 years down the line. But at the same time these people keep their heads down, they’re not interested in politics, they’re not interested in playing games on the markets. They’re interested in building transformative technologies that help people. And I think ultimately the technology will be able to keep up based on what I’ve seen over just even the past couple of years in Bitcoin alone. Let alone all of the other various privacy and really liberty based technologies that exist out there like Tor and VPNs, Onion Routing in general. Okay. What do you see are the industries that will get affected by crypto technology, by blockchain technology in the next time? Or where do you see the most impact? Financials is clear for everybody, banking and so on… But maybe are there industries that you see as the next big markets for that technology? Yeah. Obviously I think finance is definetely the biggest one that is gonna be disrupted the fastest. But logistics and shipping being able to track goods as they cross from one jurisdiction into another and have a consistent and clear record of how how things are flowing. I think fraud will be reduced in the shipping industry in like a very massive way as a result of this. I think the energy industry is one I’m most excited about. I allign energy and economic policy is very much one in the same. I mean after all energy is the most fundamental currency of the universe. So, like to have restrictions over how we produce and consume energy… I think cryptocurrency and blockchain technology in general, proof of work specifically, It’s already beginning to drive the conversation in terms of energy production and consumption. And I think that is perhaps the most radically transformative part of exactly what’s happening. But paradoxically Bitcoin is known for like huge energy consumption. So, this is somehow a contradiction, right? Well, I actually think the opposite side of that. If you look at all of the energy costs of the existing ecosystem. For example, a single average ATM uses about 700 watts of electricity at rest, right? So, I think just as the technology disintramediates, financial institutions and all of those high energy costs currently associated… And that’s just ATMs. Then you think about all the buildings, all the people, all the paperwork, all the computer systems… That’s a massive, massive amount of energy. And my thesis is that proof of work will ultimately be significantly less expensive than that entire system… and I think it even is today. It’s like proof of work, is it like never-ending growing organism? Do you see like the end of the growth of the energy consumption in Bitcoin? It’s an s-curve. So, what happens is that once the energy cost of attacking the chain exceeds that of any one actor or group of actors And their ability to quickly expend that amount of energy that is about where the equilibrium will be established. So we’ll see this growth in energy cost which is where we’re at today. And then it’s tapering off once the system is so secure that it’s impossible for even a nation-state to attack that system. There is no reason for that energy cost to go up any higher. So, it will taper off and match exactly what the market demands for that security is. But I don’t understand the connection between the security of the protocol or Bitcoin reaching this level of security and the motivation of the miners because their motivation is not for Bitcoin to be secure. Their motivation is monetary. There is this monetary impulse, right? Sure, there is really interesting coupling between those two ideas though. Because if the system is not secure, then the currency that they’re producing is worth less, right? So, if at any point that currency becomes less secure the demand will decrease because what people are looking for is a censorship proof money. And the only thing that creates that censorship, resistance at least is the amount of energy that’s expended over time. So, the miners are responsible for finding where the cheaper energy is to do the work to provide the service that the users are looking for. So, I think there is a correlation ultimately between that two and that there will become an equilibrium between the demand for that immutability, the security of what proof of work provides and the miners’ ability to produce it. So, I think it is very tightly coupled acutally. So, there where you were talking about this s-curve, it will not grow exponentially anymore. It will be more flat or maybe logarithmically? Yeah, sure! So, is it conceivable that also the price of Bitcoin will behave in the same way? Yeah, I definetely think that we’re gonna see aother two to three big bubbles in Bitcin. And then ultimately like once a significant amount of wealth and capital has flowed into Bitcoin. There is really not much other wealth out there that can flow into it. I mean what we’re probably gonna be witnessing is the collapse of Fiat in general. And that’s where we’ll see big bubbles come from is as global wealth moves into digital currency and then we’ll see a tapering out. And that will be when you start seeing like really wide scale consumer adoption. Because there is no longer the long-term promise of “Oh, the price is gonna go up and then I’m gonna sell and then I’m gonna be rich”. That’s not what it is about. It’s about establishing a global, stable, sound money that people can use in commerce. It doesn’t really make sense to use an asset that can fluctuate so widely. I mean of course I spend my Bitcoin in many cases because I like the idea of it. Yeah, but most people don’t, right? But most people won’t because they’re looking for the upside. Exactly, so this is actually paradoxically Gresham’s law, forbids Bitcoin to become a currency right now, right? Because people just want to keep it, right? Yeah. They spend the worse currency, meaning dollar or Fiat, right? They keep the better currency. Yeah. Okay. So, coming to last questions. You are seasoned entrepreneur or at first, you are for 5 or 6 years in this industry. So, what were the most suprising events in that industry for you and maybe what have you learned in that industry? That was most non-intuitive? Sure. So, before I even joined Blockstream I worked at a company called BitPay. You might have heard of them as well. Yeah They were very focused on the consumer-merchant payment relationship. I was very excited about Bitcoin as a currency when I was working for BitPay. I was very surprised to see that the adoption was so slow. There really was very little demand for people to… People didn’t even know about Bitcoin at that time. So, we were very early. So, I was very surprised explicitly to see just how… and this is how I sort of adopted my philosophy today. I was very suprised to see how long and how resistant to change so many people were. And that’s why I kind of have adopted this like “Man, education is gonna take a long period of time”. So, that was a big surprise. My other big surprise was is just how people are not paying attention to history. And like we were talking about Roger Ver, Bitcoinica and MtGox. It happens over and over again. It keeps happening. Fortunately it has been less bad on the Bitcoin side but we’re seeing the same mistakes play out in other communities. So, for example Ethereum. People are putting and throwing money into these contracts. And then the money is gone… and it’s gone! And if people just did a little bit of reading and a little bit of research and were a little bit more careful these same mistakes wouldn’t happen. But at the same time maybe everybody has to get burned by this once to learn the lesson. So, is that the reason why you don’t invest in ICOs or in altcoins? Or do you actually? No, I exclusively hold Bitcoin right now. And the reason is that I haven’t really found any technically interesting projects that make sense to diversify away from Bitcoin. If I’m gonna invest my Bitcoin then it has to outperform Bitcoin. This is also my philosophy but I manage actually to outperform it with altcoins. At least I mean I partly invested in altcoins. So, yeah. This is the standard. The gold standard so to say. Invest only if you can get more Bitcoin out of it. Yeah! That’s exactly right. I mean once I realized what was gonna happen over the long term I moved everything that I had into Bitcoin. And I’ve closed down most of my bank accounts and I got rid of all my paper money. So, you are really a maximalist. Okay, on the other hand you are seasoned entrepreneur. You founded several companies. You even sold the company recently. So, in your business career what were the lessons that you’ve learned at that time? Yeah, sure. Really just to listen to other people is the number one lesson. Not to think “I have to be the one to make all the decisions”. But to find really good people that are better than me in various ideas and make sure that that is where I’m getting my information from. The second is… this is more entrepreneurship question, investor question I think. But finding investors that provide more than just a money but provide expertise and knowledge, contacts, networks. And share the passion about whatever the project is that you’re working on because you can usually find money anywhere. We call it dumb money, right? But you want smart money and we want people that not just invested in a monetary sense but invested in the idea sense for your business. Okay. Once a year I do some predictions about what may happen in crypto in this year. What are your non-intuitive predictions of events? Not necesserily the prices or whatever but events that may happen in the crypto space in the coming months, maybe in the coming year? Uhhh yeah. Short, midterm, right? I don’t want to take too many potshots but I think that there are some very precariously positioned, well capitalized but precarioulsy positioned projects in the space right now… …that will fail. That will fail in spectacular fashion. And this bothers me. Could you say some names? I really prefer not to because I’m not here to divide people and make arguments or anything. But it’s really just being conservative and being careful about what technologies you use. And if you’re on the bleeding edge of technology right now like all of these systems are being created for the very first time. And there is a lot of miastakes being made as well. There’s gonna be fireworks and I’m stocking up on popcorn. So, you can buy some popcorn stocks if you want to invest in something but it’s gonna be a wild ride. I think seeing what regulatory action is, what the governments are gonna do is gonna be really, really interesting. We are already seeing ssomething is coming out of the US government in particular. Enforcement actions. So, you think projects that are not community based but are like company based are endangered especially? I think companies that made a claims that cannot be delivered on are in the most danger. And I think that there are quite a few of those out there right now. Selling something that has not… that the technology hasn’t been built and designed… let alone built. I would call it scammy actually. Selling even the solutions for problems that haven’t been solved, right? Exactly. Selling solutions to problems that haven’t been solved. Exactly right. I mean many of these issues are serious academic challenges that people have been working on for decades in some cases. Yeah, but isn’t Lightning Network one of them? I actually very strongly believe in Lightning. I understand how it works. I’ve looked at smart contracts, payment channels and it’s more of an engineering challenge than it is a computers like science question I believe. Yeah, what about the routing in Lightning? Isn’t it an NP-complete problem? Yeah. There are some serious challenges in routing but there are also several papers that actually have recently come out. That propose very compelling solutions to these things. Routing is something that has been addressed in like BDP and TCP for example. So, we have ideas on how to approach those but that’s why it’s an engineering challenge. We’re working with 3-dimensional system as opposed to a 2-dimensional system in a way. So, we have a couple of extra engineering questions that have to be addressed and it really relies on going ahead and deploying a production network Which is why the main network is happening. So, we can see the behaviour in the real world to fully understand exactly what parts of the system need to be optimized more in order for it to scale more broadly. But I think fundamentally Lightning has addresed all of the necessary challenges in terms of getting to become an usable payment system, There is a phrase make it work and Bitcin itself prooved that it can work, right? We can built payment channels on top of Bitcoin. Make it right. That’s really what Lightning is. Now we’re gonna build a network that uses the underlying settlement system and then make it fast. So, make it work, make it right, make it fast. And we’re just in the transition between making it right and making it fast. So, once we finish this stage… So, right would be also private or fungible, right? That’s correct. Yeah. So, this is the second part of doing it right. Exactly. So, we will get away of actually using Bitcoin in a much more private way without having to do a hard fork on the base layer. So, do you see space for private coins apart from Bitcoin? Absolutely in the meantime I do not believe Bitcoin is finished until it is fully private. But the question of which technology, which tool to use, which cryptographic construction to be used is a big point of discussion and debate. We are still making advances on space efficiency of cryptographic proofs, we’re still making advances on performance which is another big question. Unfortunately very recently there have been major advances that look very promising. But then the political question of how you get that merged into Bitcoin is another very big, big question. Right, it’s another question. So, on the other hand, do you see space or what do you think of DAG projects, non blockchain based currencies? I’m actually really excited about DAGs. I think it’s a really interesting approach but because it’s so new I think it needs a lot of time to mature. And I’m hopeful that they can do it so quickly so we can see a fair comparison. But I’m not investing in such projects right now because I remain very skeptical of their applicability in an adversarial environment. So, in general of their security, right? Yes. This is actually the major challenge for these projects. I don’t know about any project in that space that is truly decentralized Yeah, exactly. Okay. So, the very last question. Any message to the viewers, to the cryto community? Any advice maybe you would like to give or say something to the world? Obviously just all the same basic things, right? Like do your research, hold your own keys. If you don’t hold the keys, you don’t own the money. Be very conservative and skeptical of new projects that are oming out. Look for the review and adivce of experts as much as possible and learn. Learn, learn, learn! Every day you should be learning. Because this is such a broad space with so many different technologies and ideas. And you need the ability to make judgment calls for yourself. Exactly. So, you should decide yourself, have the knowledge and understand… But by the way when you say “listen” or “get information from expert”. Who do you think is the most insightful person in this space or who you like to listen to? It’s hard to say. There is so many different domain specific… so many different subjects. I think that there is about 10 to 15 really good people that I like to listen to. I think Jameson Lopp for example shares a lot of really good ideas. Very clear commentary, discerning. Andrew Poelstra is usually who I follow in terms of cryptography and mathematics. Some of the people that I really like don’t talk so much. They’re more quiet. So, I pay attention to mailing lists. So, pretty much anything like Peter Wuille will say. Peter Wuille is… I have the most respect for him. Yeah, that’s probably the top 3 for me. Okay. Jameson is perhaps the most liked vocal and talks more publicly I would say. Okay. Eric, it was pleasure talking to you. Thank you for your time. I wish you success in this conference and of course for your ventures, for your projects. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Thanks guys and see you from New York! I can see you liked this video. If yes, give me a thumb up. Subscribe below and don’t forget to heat the bell button in order not ti miss my other videos. I encourage you leave comments. What do you think about the topics we were talking about? What is your exxperience? What is your perspective? I invite you also to share this video with your loved ones, with your friends. One day they will thank you for that. And I promised a competition at the beginning of this video. 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