Dismantling the Silk Road Drug Ring (w/ Kyle Bass and Kathryn Haun)

KYLE BASS: Well, this one’s going to be a
fun one, Katie, it’s a pleasure to sit down with you in a more formal sense, since we’re
mostly informal. KATHRYN HAUN: Likewise, Kyle. Thanks for inviting. KYLE BASS: So, for those of you that don’t
know Katie, she is one of the partners at Andreessen Horowitz. But more importantly, the former US attorney
here in San Francisco who prosecuted the Bitcoin Silk Road case. We’re going to talk about a lot of interesting
things today. And for the Real Vision crowd, I think talking
a lot about crypto digital assets will come more at the end. But let’s go back to your law school days. And talk about which Supreme Court Justice
you clerked for and why, and then how that brought you into working in the US Attorney’s
office? KATHRYN HAUN: Well, it’s funny, Kyle. I wasn’t actually planning to be a prosecutor,
some people think I’m going to go to law school and go be a corporate M&A lawyer or go into
international business or go be a public defender. I didn’t really know what I wanted to do. But I knew I wanted to go to law school. And that’s something that I had always wanted
to do even from the early days. And so, I went to Stanford. And there, I really was focused on going to
New York City. And so, I signed up, I took the New York bar. And I was planning to go work at Kravets,
which is a big Wall Street firm. And one of the things I realized, though,
was that what was really interesting me in law were the human stories and the human element,
whether you’re talking about things like employment law, or especially criminal law. And ironically, my best grades, were not from
the transactional classes, like the corporate law, or the securities and capital markets
classes, but from the criminal law, or the constitutional law side of things. So, maybe that was an early sign. KYLE BASS: It was and clearly it’s what drew
me to you as we developed our friends over time is this you’re one of the coolest ladies
that I know. You’re one of the few people in San Francisco
that can carry a gun. You’ve prosecuted some of the worst MS13 cases
as well as, again, the Bitcoin Silk Road case, which I’d love to get into a little bit next. I know that there are movies being made about
this and things like that. But if you would, I think this talk, what
people are going to find to be most interesting about our conversation is, is how you came
from law enforcement on the criminal side into the investment universe into being a
partner at one of the most prestigious venture capital firms in the world. KATHRYN HAUN: I was fortunate to clerk for
Justice Kennedy. And I remember that he asked me in my interview-
I’ll never forget, he asked me, what do you want to do when you leave here? What’s your fiveyear or 10-year career plan? And I told him, I want to go be a prosecutor. And I knew by that point that I really felt
strongly that I wanted to be involved in the criminal justice system in some way. And that was quite a shift from the early
days of when I thought I was going to be a corporate lawyer in New York City. And I went to work for a big law firm in Washington,
DC. And I told the partner very candidly, my goal
here, the partner who hired me, my goal is to really go into the US Attorney’s Office. And fortunately, that was a firm called Sidley
Austin, they appreciated the transparency and said that it’s a tough nut to crack. But if you can get into that office, good
for you. And 10 months later, I found myself there. And that was out in the Washington DC area,
it was in the Eastern District of Virginia called the Rocket Docket. Because the Rocket Docket, so named because
of the pace with which cases go through. And we were doing cartel cases there, a lot
of the international work that the DEA was doing. So, that’s where I cut my teeth as a baby
prosecutor, was in this Rocket Docket. And then I was out, also in headquarters working
on some national security cases, and also working in the attorney general’s office. But in 2008, so they call it back to the line
back, to the line being a prosecutor. So, I had been in some senior roles in headquarters
working on national security, and things implicating national policy, and went back to the line
of prosecuting cases, which is what I loved. KYLE BASS: And that’s when they sent you to
San Francisco? KATHRYN HAUN: I actually chose to move out
here, mostly for family reasons. And I had been in DC by that point for eight
years. Which was a nice long time. KYLE BASS: But you got involved in some really
interesting cases really quickly. Somewhere gang-related and somewhere, again,
then the Bitcoin case came. And that was a big one. So, if you would take us right into the Bitcoin
case. KATHRYN HAUN: Sure. Well, so it was around 2012, late 2012 I think
it was, and my boss came into the office. I had been doing murder cases and organized
crime and Rico gang murders up until then. Had done a few trials, I did a two-month biker
murder case and was felt like I had been there and done that with a lot of violent crime
cases. And my boss knew that I really was looking
for a change, but I still wanted to stay in the office. And they proposed, why don’t you work on this
new case that we have in the office? And that’s a case against Bitcoin. Here we were in 2012-2013. And we quickly learned there’s no such thing
as prosecuting Bitcoin, that would be like prosecuting cash, it’s not possible. We also quickly discovered it’s not desirable. There were some really good things about this
new technology also. Instead, what we did was we focused on- we
said, let’s- just like we do with cash or wires or any medium of exchange, let’s focus
on the bad uses of this. And that same thing happened in the early
days of tech and in the early days of the internet. It wasn’t let’s prosecute technology, it was
like, let’s stand up a computer crimes unit within the Justice Department and go after
the nefarious cases using this technology. So, that’s how we were approaching Bitcoin
in those early days. And there were a lot of bad, nefarious uses
involving crypto. And in those days, when I say crypto now,
I mean crypto assets are there are more than 1500 of them. Back in those days, we’re talking really just
about Bitcoin. We’re talking about Bitcoin, this is pre-TOR. KYLE BASS: And in your mind, what percentage
of the transactions that were going on in let’s just say Bitcoin early on were done,
say, for dark reasons, as opposed to for reasons of commerce? KATHRYN HAUN: In those early days? KYLE BASS: Yeah. KATHRYN HAUN: Well, in the early days, the
number of the percentages were way higher. Because the thing we know about criminals
is that they’re often the earliest adopters of new technology. And we saw this in the internet. KYLE BASS: And they love the anonymity of
this one. Yeah. KATHRYN HAUN: They love the anonymity. But it turns out, it’s not anonymous, which
I’ll get into. It’s pseudo anonymous, and there’s an important
distinction there. Because Bitcoin is far from anonymous, if
anything, it’s like digital breadcrumbs. Speaking as a former investigator and prosecutor,
we actually loved cases that involve Bitcoin, way more than cash. And sometimes even more than wires because
turns out Bitcoin is highly traceable, which I’ll get into, as I tell you a little bit
about this story. KYLE BASS: Great. So, what happened? KATHRYN HAUN: So, we’re prosecuting some early
cases involving criminal uses of Bitcoin. And my colleagues out in New York were prosecuting
a case known as the Silk Road. And at that time, no one really knew who was
running the Silk Road. The government was really trying to find out
who was running the Silk Road, where were the people or person, he or she, it was unknown
at the time who it was, was running the Silk Road, and where were they doing it from? Little did they know they were doing it right
here from San Francisco. At that time, the mastermind of the Silk Road
could have been anywhere in the world. And so, the US government was really trying
to find out who was running this criminal enterprise, or depending on your perspective,
libertarian paradise. KYLE BASS: So, the Silk Road was essentially
a marketplace from the way I understand it. And again, correct me. I’m not an expert in these things. And the marketplace had various nefarious
items on it. So, what were some of the things that the
Silk Road was purveying? KATHRYN HAUN: Sure, well, you’re exactly right,
Kyle. It was a marketplace. It was an online marketplace, like an eBay,
or an Amazon. But more akin to an eBay. So, there were vendors on this marketplace. And Silk Road was an online platform, and
you could access it using TOR, which do you know what TOR is? KYLE BASS: No. KATHRYN HAUN: It stands for The Onion Router,
okay. And it’s basically a way to anonymously browse
online. KYLE BASS: This is the dark web? KATHRYN HAUN: Well, actually, you access parts
of the dark web with TOR. TOR is the browser. KYLE BASS: Got it. KATHRYN HAUN: So, think of TOR as the Chrome
or Internet Explorer. KYLE BASS: I see, for the dark web? KATHRYN HAUN: For the dark web. Not just for the dark web, like anything with
technology, people are also using the TOR browser and places like Iran or China. KYLE BASS: So, dark web? KATHRYN HAUN: Well, there are there are good
uses for- all I’m saying is there are good uses for the TOR Browser. There are also a lot of bad uses for the TOR
browser. So, like anything with technology, there are
good and bad uses. But absolutely, people who are accessing the
dark web, which I grant you, are people that are up to no good typically, are accessing
the dark websites using TOR browsers. Or a TOR browser. And so, Silk Road was one such online marketplace. And like I say, I always say, was it a criminal
enterprise? Being a former prosecutor, I sure think so. Or was it a libertarian paradise? Because I also know a lot of people, especially
here in San Francisco, who think it’s not a criminal enterprise. Everyone should be able to choose whatever
they want to buy. One could go buy anything from heroin to fake
passports, and to a lot of things in between. And by the way, Silk Road- KYLE BASS: And
they just mail them to your house? KATHRYN HAUN: Yeah. Well, typically, for sophisticated actors
or users of Silk Road, they wouldn’t pick their house. But there were plenty of people who indeed
did select their house. And the Silk Road was making millions of dollars
a month. And they had them generating a lot of revenues. And I believe it was I’m trying to remember
how exactly the case got opened in New York, but I believe hearing that Senator Schumer
read a wired article and was wondering why this was being allowed to proceed. And so, the Southern District of New York,
which was another US Attorney’s office, I was in the US Attorney’s Office out in San
Francisco. SDNY opened the case and was trying to figure
out who was behind the Silk Road. At the same time, you had a DC office just
in Baltimore, outside of DC, also trying to figure out who was running the Silk Road. And there were parallel investigations going
in. And the government had taskforces comprised
of an alphabet soup of agencies. You’re talking about FBI, Secret Service,
DEA, ATF, Marshals, on and on. And one task force, the one out of Washington,
DC, well, Baltimore in Washington DC, they had an undercover agent. And that undercover agent was able to befriend
the person running the Silk Road and all the government knew at the time was that the person
running the Silk Road went by the nickname DPR for Dread Pirate Roberts. From the movie The Princess Bride. Yeah. So, they didn’t know who DPR was. But the undercover agentKYLE BASS: Struck
up an online relationship with him? KATHRYN HAUN: Exactly. He actually said I want to buy the Silk Road. So, struck up an online conversation with
DPR, and proceeded for the next two years to engage in messaging conversations with
DPR. The two actually became quite close confidantes. KYLE BASS: Interesting. KATHRYN HAUN: Yeah, over two years. KYLE BASS: And then what went wrong? KATHRYN HAUN: Well, a lot of things went wrong
on both sides. From the Silk Road’s side, 2013 was a really
bad year for the Silk Road, because what you had was you had a person, an online persona,
who went by the name Death From Above. Death From Above started extorting DPR saying,
if you don’t pay me hundreds of thousands of dollars in bitcoin, I’m going to reveal
your identity to law enforcement. And then meanwhile, there was another online
persona, and this person went by the moniker French Maid. I can’t make these names out. French Maid was selling DPR information into
the government’s investigation for Bitcoin. And French Maid was telling DPR the feds are
closing in and the end is near. And you’re about to be had. KYLE BASS: So, French Maid, in theory had
to be someone either married to or was part of the government’s investigations. KATHRYN HAUN: Well, DPR didn’t know but DPR
paid for that information. And the government didn’t know any of this
at the time of course, this all came out after the fact. But amidst this, something else really bad
happenedKYLE BASS: What else happened in 2013? KATHRYN HAUN: About 21,000 bitcoins, which
is today, in excess of I always have to do the calculation given how Bitcoin is moving,
but it’s an excess of 150 million dollars, I think today, went missing overnight from
the Silk Road. From Silk Road vendor accounts and also from
what you might consider the petty cash account, although there’s nothing petty about 21,000
bitcoins. And so, that went missing overnight. And DPR was of course infuriated the next
day. He thought he’d been hacked. So, he launched his own internal investigation,
and he quickly discovered so he thought his right hand man, the Silk Road administrator
was responsible for this theft. KYLE BASS: And it was about 21,000 bitcoins? KATHRYN HAUN: 21,000 bitcoins. So, whatever the figure is today, it’s in
excess of 100 million dollars. And so, the right hand man, the Silk Road
administrator, it turns out, was a grandfather living in Utah, by the name of Curtis Green. And Curtis Green, what DPR didn’t know was
that Curtis Green, his right hand man, was already cooperating with the feds by this
point, with those task forces that I mentioned to you earlier. KYLE BASS: Yeah, the feds had found him. KATHRYN HAUN: The feds had found Curtis Green
in what’s called a buy bust operation. Where they delivered some keys of coke to
his house. There’s a wired article story about the bust. And Curtis Green said I’d like to cooperate
and spare myself a long sentence, and I can help you with the Silk Road. And so, that’s what he did. He sat down with the federal task force, the
one I mentioned outside of Baltimore, and he showed them how did the Silk Road work? How do you log into it? How do you reset vendor pins and passwords? Of course, he had that access because he was
a key administrator. So, he was showing this federal task force
that day, here’s how it works. And he even gave them his laptop to keep because
it was evidence. So, they had it. And that becomes important to the story later
that they had the access. They had the login credentials. KYLE BASS: They actually became an administrator. KATHRYN HAUN: They could have. KYLE BASS: For the Silk Road. KATHRYN HAUN: They certainly could have, they
had the tools to do that and the know-how. And what ended up happening was in this 21,000
bitcoins goes missing overnight, DPR looks into it and says, hey, it’s Curtis Green’s
pins and passwords that have allowed this to all be drained. And Curtis Green, therefore, must have committed
this theft. And actually, I want to have a hit put out
on him. KYLE BASS: So, kill Curtis Green. KATHRYN HAUN: To kill Curtis Green. So, he paid about $80,000 in two installments
of $40,000. Interestingly, not in bitcoin, just in a pure
old-fashioned wire and guess who he turned to, to do the hit? KYLE BASS: Who? KATHRYN HAUN: The undercover federal agent
who had befriended DPR. He had a code name named Nob. That was his cover. KYLE BASS: And that’s who he turned to in
the murder for hire? KATHRYN HAUN: DPR turned to Nob not knowing
Nob was actually an undercover federal agent. DPR thought Nob was actually a drug lord with
connections to the criminal underworld. All he knew is the two had only ever conversed
online for two years but he clearly trusted Nob, that’s who he asked to help him torture
and murder Curtis Green. KYLE BASS: Wow. And so, what happened next? KATHRYN HAUN: So, of course, the feds, now,
they have Curtis Green cooperating, they confront Curtis Green the next day and say, there’s
a hit put out on you. And by the way, we know you stole 21,000 bitcoin,
you’re not going to make a very good cooperating witness if you don’t come clean on that. And Curtis Green was insistent he had not
stolen the money. He pointed out he had turned over his laptop
just the day before to the task force. And he didn’t have any way that he could have
committed this theft. So, he was insistent. But the feds had to go about staging Curtis
Green’s murder. And so, they proceeded to take photos, proof
of death photos that depicted the torture and murder of Curtis Green. Yeah, they sent this to DPR saying the hit’s
been done. And Curtis Green’s dead, your problem’s gone. And we still didn’t know thoughKYLE BASS:
But did DPR ever think he could get the 21,000 bitcoin back? KATHRYN HAUN: Well, I’m not sure what he thought. In October 2013, DPR, it was discovered who
he was. And he was none other than Ross Ulbricht,
he was operating the Silk Road. KYLE BASS: What’s his name? KATHRYN HAUN: Ross Ulbricht. KYLE BASS: Ross Ulbricht, yeah. He was the kid from Austin, Texas? KATHRYN HAUN: Yeah, that’s right. At that time, still a kid. He think he was around 20 something at the
time. And my counterparts in New York arrested him
out here in San Francisco in the Glen Park library, in the act of running the Silk Road. KYLE BASS: From the library? KATHRYN HAUN: From Glen Clark library. That’s right. KYLE BASS: Wow. On his laptop? KATHRYN HAUN: Right. And they needed to catch him in the act, even
though they had identified who he was by then, they needed to catch him in the act, because
he could have basically hit the equivalent of a kill switch and destroyed a bunch of
evidence. Yeah. So, the FBI staged a lover’s quarrel in the
Glen Park library with two undercover agents posing as boyfriend and girlfriend having
a big fight. And this distracted Ross Ulbricht who looked
away from his laptop while another FBI agent swooped in and snatched it. KYLE BASS: Amazing. And so, bringing you in, you investigated
some good guys gone bad. KATHRYN HAUN: Yeah, that’s right. KYLE BASS: So, what happened? And how did the good guys go bad? And what did they do? KATHRYN HAUN: Sure. Well, so I was not actually involved in the
Ross Ulbricht prosecution or investigation, as I mentioned, that was my colleagues in
New York. But in 2014, I was sitting out here in my
office in San Francisco in the US Attorney’s Office, and I was talking to a witness in
another case, and he pulled me aside and said, I feel like I can trust you and I have a tip
for you. And he said, I’m a former investigative reporter. And I know a rat when I see one. And you have a rogue agent on your payroll. KYLE BASS: Wow. KATHRYN HAUN: Yeah. On the government payroll. KYLE BASS: And so, what did you do? KATHRYN HAUN: I thought we’re in San Francisco
and this place is really full of so many conspiracy theories. So, I took it with a grain of salt. Honestly, Kyle, I thought, I hear all the
time being out here how the government is conspiring against everyone. I secretly, I think, rolled my eyes and thought,
whatever. It’s a shame this guy is smearing a federal
agent’s good name. KYLE BASS: Right. That would be my defense, too. KATHRYN HAUN: Yeah. Well, look, I had been working with federal
agents by that point for a decade. And they’re absolutely heroes. 99.999% of the time. And so, coupled with the fact that I was always
hearing these conspiracy theories in San Francisco, and there were a lot of them. But this particular individual was really
insistent. And like I mentioned, he emphasized that he
had been an investigative reporter. And he seemed very insistent. So, I thought, well, we’ll look into it. If for no other reason than to clear this
person’s name. So, we took a high level dive, this is where
the blockchain comes in. We took a high level dive- and by the way,
it’s not a popular thing in a prosecutor’s office to openKYLE BASS: Right, to look at
one of your own. KATHRYN HAUN: Exactly. And that was why the blockchain was particularly
useful to us. KYLE BASS: Because you could follow things. KATHRYN HAUN: You could follow some things. So, we took a high level look into it. And we saw that this agent who we got the
tip for- and by the way, the agent was the undercover agent I mentioned who had been
investigating the Silk Road. KYLE BASS: Nob? KATHRYN HAUN: Correct. And what we found was that Nob was liquidating
hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars a month in cryptocurrency. And so, I thought of this is probably another
undercover operation, poorly backstopped. And there’s probably a legitimate explanation. So, but let’s look into this a bit further,
because that does certainly seem odd. So, we went to some of these exchanges where
Nob was liquidating the crypto. And what we found was that he had actually
been emailing these exchanges, directing them to destroy evidence, and destroy transaction
history. KYLE BASS: As an agent of the government. KATHRYN HAUN: Correct. And that’s how we knew something nefarious
was probably afoot. Because as an agent, if you’re running an
undercover operation, you’re not asking for evidence to be destroyed. You need that as proof and as evidence later. So, we then, I think, in our minds, thought
this is very odd, and in fact, does bear or does merit further investigation. And so, that’s what we did. And so, we started looking into it. And then we were comfortable issuing subpoenas,
doing some search warrants on some communications facilities. And what we found was evidence of a pattern
of really bad behavior. That’s to put it mildly, not just vis a vis
the Silk Road and DPR, and Ross Ulbricht. KYLE BASS: Right. Other sites. KATHRYN HAUN: Other individuals, early users
of cryptocurrency, who probably wouldn’t have been the ones to report- I’ve been the victim
of a crime, if you catch my drift. And so, we started uncovering more and more
and we started looking at blockchain, the blockchain and we traced back payments from
Nob’s accounts where he had liquidated this hundreds of thousands and indeed millions
of cryptocurrencies. It turns out Nob had been French Maid selling
Ross Ulbricht or DPR information into the government’s case. KYLE BASS: Oh, I see. KATHRYN HAUN: But that’s not all. It turned out also, that Nob had been Death
From Above extorting Ross Ulbricht and threatening to reveal his identity to law enforcement
if he wasn’t paid hundreds of thousands of dollars. KYLE BASS: Oh, my word. So, he created various personas. KATHRYN HAUN: He was a double agent. He’s playing both sides the whole time. Ross Ulbricht and DPR are one and the same,
and then also the government. Because he’s supposed to be finding out who
is DPR for the government. So, he was playing both sides the whole time. And so, naturally, we thought, oh, he probably
also stole that $150 million or the 21,000 bitcoins. Because he had been handling Curtis Green. And he had access, unique access to Curtis
Green’s laptop, admin credentials and passwords. And so, he probably also, since he did these
other bad thingsKYLE BASS: But was it him? KATHRYN HAUN: Well, so we looked, we found
initially, of course, it was him. He had access. KYLE BASS: Right. He had motive, access, all of the above. KATHRYN HAUN: Right. But we traced these payments and the movement
of funds of the 21,000 bitcoins and we traced them to a Japanese cryptocurrency exchange
the named Mt. Gox that had by then gone belly up. I don’t know if you’ve heard of Mt. Gox. KYLE BASS: Yeah. Mt. Gox was a huge- it was really the big
Bitcoin scandal where all of a sudden, so many bitcoins went missing. KATHRYN HAUN: That’s right. It was Mt. Gox suffered a series of hacks
to the tune of almost $400 million. It also suffered a US government seizure,
and eventually went belly up. And so, we traced the 21,000 bitcoins to Mt.
Gox, but unfortunately, there were no corporate records left because Mt. Gox had gone belly
up. So, what do we do then? And this is where the blockchain comes in,
we’re able to still trace because the blockchain is immutable and permanent. And it’s tamper proof. KYLE BASS: Right. Series of records. KATHRYN HAUN: Right. So, we still were able to go to that and trace
those funds. And we traced it eventually, through the hard
work of some agents who I was working with at the time, some of the agents who are investigating
some of these early cryptocurrency cases, we traced it right back to this one of the
Silk Road task forces. But not to Nob. KYLE BASS: What do you mean? Another agent? KATHRYN HAUN: Another agent. This time, a secret service agent who was
joint duty to the NSA, and he was the US government’s literally expert in TOR and anonymizing technologies. He had also been part of that task force. And he had also been in that session with
Curtis Green, where Curtis Green showed him how to log in. And that agent, that night, went back to his
hotel room after the Curtis Green debrief and pretended to be Curtis Green and drawing
the 21,000 bitcoins and put it into his own Mt. Gox account. And meanwhile, knowing the next day that there
had been a hit put out on Curtis Green. And literally thought he was setting up Curtis
Green to be the fall guy. KYLE BASS: Oh, my gosh. And never to be caught. KATHRYN HAUN: Never to be caught because he
was a real specialist at covering his tracks. Both of these agents were. These guys had been in federal law enforcement,
they knew how criminals got caught. They knew how to cover their tracks. And also, don’t forget, Kyle, at the time
of this investigation, they were federal agents with guns and badges. And they also had subpoena power. And so, these guys did everything from burned
evidence and burned bags in official government burn bags to go to different cryptocurrency
exchanges with their badges saying delete this evidence, and to banks, by the way. And they even, in the case of Nob, even issued
fictitious Justice Department subpoenas directing certain activity be done to cover their tracks. KYLE BASS: Let’s move from the Bitcoin Silk
Road case. Let’s talk about how you decided to make that
transition from a prosecutor- an amazing prosecutor to the investment world. And what drove you there? KATHRYN HAUN: Yeah. Well, I don’t know that it was really anything
that drove me there. I made the decision after having been a federal
prosecutor for over a decade that it’s probably time for me to move on to something else. My earliest supervisor in the Eastern District
of Virginia, in that Rocket Docket, I remember him telling me in the beginning, a good prosecutor
has a shelf life of seven to 10 years. And I’ll never forget that. And I think that’s true. It’s like that sweet spot where you’ve learned
how to do things and make cases and bring the right and the good cases really well. But then also, it’s time to move on and give
someone else an opportunity to do these cases. And so, I knew when I was giving away federal
murder trials to other prosecutors in the office that my time had come to go do something
else. And moreover, there was this new space, crypto,
I found it very fascinating. And look, we’re in this jurisdiction where
there’s so much happening in the technology world. I’m out here in Silicon Valley. And I felt like two things. One, I felt like I had done everything I wanted
to do as a prosecutor, and two, there’s this whole other world of technology and cyber
security and crypto. And I found that so fascinating. KYLE BASS: And you’re already living where
the digital Gold Rush was. KATHRYN HAUN: Right, exactly. And so, increasingly, and by the way, as part
of my job when I was an assistant US Attorney in the San Francisco office, I became our
first digital assets coordinator. And part of that job, it wasn’t just to go
prosecute the bad case, the bad uses of cryptocurrency, it was also to create a task force to be a
liaison from legitimate players in the industry and build bridges to policymakers, regulators,
and try and bring the two sides together. KYLE BASS: Right, somebody had to. KATHRYN HAUN: Right, to usher this forward. KYLE BASS: Yeah. And you still hold that seat today, you’re
bringing the regulatory supervisory world into meet with the good guys on the investing
side and bring them closer together. Because historically, there’s been this wall,
that virtual wall that really shouldn’t exist. KATHRYN HAUN: Yeah, I find it’s not even just
with the regulators and policymakers. It’s even with mainstream traditional players
in financial institutions or Wall Street. And I think that the way the technologists
that I know, particularly in the crypto space, but just across a variety of technologies,
think about this technology like crypto and the way that policymakers or regulators or
even Wall Street and some traditional financial institutions think about this technology are
very different. And there’s a real need to bridge that gap. And so, that’s what I’m trying to do now. And I started that with vis a vis the policymakers
and regulators when I was still in the US Attorney’s Office. And so, through that work, I got to know more
and more of what I’ll just call them the legitimate players in the industry. And there are many, and that number is growing. And those guys and gals, they don’t want nefarious
activity on their platforms. Not only is it illegal, but it’s also bad
for business. And so, they are very much incentivized to
follow the law and follow regulations, they just would tell you, we don’t know what laws
and regulations apply to us, which I think is a fair criticism. There’s been a lot of regulatory uncertainty,
particularly in this space. And so, it was time for me to go from the
government. And yet there’s this whole other world I wanted
to dive deeper into. And so, I was very fortunate. In May, two years ago, I joined the board
of directors of Coinbase, which is one of the world’s leading digital asset platforms. And so, I joined that board. And there, I met my now partner, Chris Dixon. And I also, through that work, met a variety
of other venture capital firms, but also met Ben Horowitz and Marc Andreessen of Andreessen
Horowitz. And so, got to know them while I was serving
on the board of one of their portfolio companies, Coinbase. I also joined the board of another of a cyber
security company called Hacker One, which is a bug bounty white hat hacking platform. And again, this is I think, Hacker One is
a great example of, you think of hackers sometimes and you think of like black hat hackers, and
this image of people doing bad, but actually white hat hackers are some of our best defenses
against the black hat hackers. KYLE BASS: Absolutely. So, you moved through the US Attorney’s Office,
in your core competencies and brought those to the investing side, the corporate side
from the board perspective, and then the investing side on how you think about these things going
forward. And I think everyone watching is going to
be most interested now in understanding how you’re thinking about where there are opportunities
to invest? Where are you, more broadly speaking, where
do you think this opportunity is in the next 10 years, since you guys invest on a long
term time horizon here? What types of things are you looking at? KATHRYN HAUN: Yeah, so I think, let me break
it down in two big categories. And we’ll talk about each separately. One is what I would call a category of literally
internet money. We’ve had this internet of information. The internet has connected billions of people
around the world through information. But the thing that we don’t have, and that
we’ve been missing is the internet of value. Why is it that today, if you’re over in India,
I could send you an email with contents instantly? I could send you a photograph from here to
there instantly, but I couldn’t send you value. And so, I think that’s one big category, it’s
the internet of value, and internet money, which we’ll talk about in a second. The other way that we’re thinking about this
is it’s a new computing platform. So, what you see in the history of technology
is about every 10 to 15 years, there’s some new computing platforms that emerges like
we have PCs, and then we had the internet. And then we had mobile. And now, we think of crypto as a new computing
platform, like totally a part of the currency side of things. And this is a discussion I know you and I’ve
had. It’s not just currency. KYLE BASS: This is where our debate’s going
to get more lively. KATHRYN HAUN: Okay, so we think of this as
a new computing platform. And what you will often see with new computing
platforms is you often see people thinking at the new, wait a second, this isn’t even
better than the old, this is worse than the old. Like in the case of mobile, when mobile phone
came out, people thought why would I want- or some thought, why would I want a smaller
screen than my PC? Why would I want a tiny little keyboard like
this when I have a regular keyboard? But what you get with these new computing
platforms is new features. And so, in the case of mobile, what you had
that the old platform didn’t have is you had GPS built in, you had a camera built in. And that enabled things to be built on top
that we couldn’t have even imagined at the time, the new platform came out like Lyft,
or Uber, Instagram, and all of these new applications that are built on the new computing platform. And so, in much the same way, we think of
crypto as a new platform, a new decentralized platform that decentralized apps- or they’re
called DApps. And I think that’s a term you’re going to
be hearing and your viewers are going to be hearing a lot in the coming decade. DApps, decentralized applications. And the thing about DApps is they can be built
at scale by anyone all around the world. And there’s some interesting overlays with
crypto about incentivizing content creators and creators of these applications, that they’re
able to monetize for what they’re creating, building in ways that they previously weren’t
with just pure applications, not DApps, but apps, where they’re paying huge profit margin
to some of the platforms that they’re on now. KYLE BASS: Right, they’re giving away a third
their value if they have to sit on top of the current platform. KATHRYN HAUN: That’s right for and by the
way, it’s not just the value. Can I also tell you, it’s also the platform
risk? If one of these platforms decides they don’t
want to service that anymore, they just simply turn you off. So, we were seeing a lot of de-platforming
now. And it’s not just that, they write the rules. A few big giants really write the rules for
everyone else. And so, we think in this wave of decentralized
apps or DApps, thatKYLE BASS: You don’t have to have a boss. KATHRYN HAUN: Right. Now, we’re in the early days. And I think this is a debate that we’ve had
before and that I have with many people all the time. And I think it’s really important not to judge
the current state of innovation with the end state of innovation, because you could tell
me right now, Genki, it doesn’t work. And I’ll agree with you. We’re not there yet. KYLE BASS: I’d actually like to rewind and
talk about- let’s talk about crypto assets. And so, we separate crypto from blockchain,
crypto from digital assets to a certain extent and we talked about this idea of does scarcity
equal value? And can you transfer value like the example
you gave for India, from here to India or here to a different location and around the
world? Should we be able to transfer value without
know your customer rules? Without Federal Reserve wires or without Federal
Reserve oversight, should you and I be able to transfer value somewhere unchecked? And when we think about you mentioned- much
earlier in our conversation, libertarian paradise when I speak with people in the crypto community
and people in the highest echelons of this community that were early adopters, and are
extremely wealthy today, I hear a little bit more than libertarian out of them when I talk
to them. I get, after half an hour and maybe a glass
of whiskey or two, I get to this point where I hear anarchy, I hear a little bit of we
don’t need any government. We don’t need anyone looking over our shoulder. And where do you fit in that argument? Or let’s say where’s your own opinion? KATHRYN HAUN: Yeah. Well, I’m certainly not an anarchist. And I think that there’s a segment of that,
of course, in crypto, there’s a segment of that in all kinds of new platforms that comes
up. So, I think that crypto is really no exception,
although it is pronounced, I would give you that, in the crypto space. But look, I worked for the feds for 12 years. So, I’m not an anarchist. I think there’s a rightful and a legitimate
place for government. I think it can do a lot of good. I think what you see in this space is people
and legitimate players, of which there are many, and the number is growing literally
by the day, do not say we don’t want any regulation at all, they just say we want to know number
one, who is the regulator. Because right now, it’s a bit of a free for
all. And we want to know what regulations apply
to us. And we will follow them. What they can’t tolerate and what’s just impractical
as you build a business, in any business, can you imagine, as you’re doing a startup
and you have some innovative product that you are told, well, we have 50 different regulators,
we don’t know which one might or might not regulate you. And by the way, none of them really know which
of their regulations apply to you. KYLE BASS: It’s like living in San Francisco. KATHRYN HAUN: It’s actually worse than that. And so, what they want is it’s not that they
want no regulation and no government, I think what they want is they want some regulatory
clarity. And you look to places like Singapore and
you look to places like the UK, who has this a single financial regulator with the FCA. They have this new Sandbox for financial innovation. And they’ve really made a push to be the FinTech
hub of the world. And what we see, unfortunately, is we’re seeing
more and more projects moving overseas. They’re like, well, I can go apply for a Sandbox,
I know I have a single regulator. So, that’s not someone looking skirt our laws. KYLE BASS: That’s always been one in the strength. They’ve always been maybe a financial clearinghouse
for the world, much more than the US because, yeah, truthfully, they have laws that aren’t
as stringent as ours. KATHRYN HAUN: That’s right. But on the other hand, the crypto entrepreneurs
know what the laws are. KYLE BASS: I see. Is that going to happen here? KATHRYN HAUN: Well, so one of the things that
is increasingly happening is we’re seeing agencies like the CFTC. So, one of the big questions in the crypto
space is, I’ll give you a great example. Is it SEC, is it the CFTC? KYLE BASS: It’s a land grab from a regulator’s
perspective. They all like to be functionally relevant. KATHRYN HAUN: That’s right. But then what you have with crypto is you
have this new asset class that may be at one time, something’s a security, but then it
changes over time to a commodity. And at what point does that happen? And who regulates it? Where’s the handoff? Is there a handoff? So, I would push back on the assumption that
people in the crypto space don’t want to follow laws and don’t want to follow regulations. I think they just want to know which laws
are relevant. And that’s something I’m trying to help with
now. And try and be part of these conversations. KYLE BASS: Yeah. Well, the bigger question for me, as I know,
you and I have discussed is what happens to the global financial order if it becomes decentralized? And I mean that in a way that- we know the
Swift system is designed, it’s based in Belgium for a reason. It’s where all financial wires go through. And it’s how the US Treasury exercises its,
let’s call it its third arrow, and its quiver, the big one, when we as a country or other
European block nations implement sanctions on bad actors, our last move is just cancel,
take them off the Swift system, means they can’t move money around the world outside
of shrink wrap pallets of hundred dollar bills. KATHRYN HAUN: Sure, like with Treasury regulations. KYLE BASS: Yeah, which we’re doing now on
various bad actors in Iran and other places. So, when I think about decentralized or I
think about crypto, I wonder how in a rules based order, it actually can coexist with
governments that are actually functioning democracies? KATHRYN HAUN: Sure. Well, so it’s great question. And it’s something I spend a lot of time thinking
about, like, what does the world look like where you have complete- and we don’t have
it yet. We’re in the dial up days of all of this technology. So, when I talk about complete decentralization,
I don’t mean to suggest that we’re there. But I do think that’s coming. And I’ll get to that. To answer your question, Kyle, look, I think
you mentioned Swift, and that’s a great example. The problem with Swift is the problem with
any centralized system, there’s a single point of failure, which can be good for regulation,
what you’re talking about, if it’s appropriately exercised, government authorities appropriately
exercised using discretion. However, the problem with a centralized system
is it’s a single point of failure. And Swift is a great example because Swift
was hacked. And where we live in a world of daily cyber
breaches, centralized systems are huge targets and huge honey pots. So, I think that’s one problem with centralized
systems, which decentralization is indifferent, is obviously an alternative to that. But also, when you talk about Treasury sanctions,
whether you’re talking about FinCEN, 311 or OFAC sanctions, it’s a great question, should
people just be able to move value around. And look, I would say, our current system,
anti-money laundering laws are critically important. I can tell you that as having been a money
laundering prosecutor for 10 years. Of course, I care about that. And you need the ability to follow funds in
certain cases. But actually, our current system is just doing
a pretty terrible job of it I’d say. Let me tell you what I mean, 99.9% of all
money laundering crimes go unprosecuted. 99.9%. And you can go Google that statistic. I testified before the US Senate about this. And the person who cited that statistic other
than Senator Chuck Grassley, was the ex-Treasury official. And I thought that can’t be right. KYLE BASS: He was in charge. Yeah. KATHRYN HAUN: But I indeed, I researched into
it and it’s true. Go look it up now. 99.9% of money laundering crimes go unprosecuted. Yet, financial services industry is spending
$20 billion a year on AML and KYC. So, I would ask you, is it even working? I don’t think it’s working right now. So, the moving to a decentralized system I
think is really, I think we’re kidding ourselves if we think that’s going to change too much. I do think there is need to follow large amounts
of money. And crypto will make that hard as we move
to a peer to peer system. Perhaps there could be some limits on when
the amount is over a certain amount of crypto asset. I don’t know what the right answer is. But I know that the technology is here, and
the genie is out of the bottle. So, say, oh, this is bad. And peer to peer transmission is going to
subvert important terrorist financing rules, I would ask you, first of all, are we sure
we’re really catching those things now? The fact of the matter is terrorist attacks
that we’re seeing now are committed usually with things like guns or trucks. They’re not sophisticated operations that
cost a few thousand dollars. Those folks are using cash, or they’re using
prepaid cards, or systems like that. They’re not exactly doing it in a traceable
way. KYLE BASS: I don’t know. Well, look, ISIS had $2 billion, they still
have three, $400 million. And I think it’s a widely known secret that
it’s all in Turkey in the Turkish banks, and it’s run by technically legitimate businessmen
who decide to launder money. And it’s hard to decipher when you’re running
a business that actually is legitimate and if you’re giving that to terrorists, it’s
really hard to catch. KATHRYN HAUN: Sure. But I would say that’s hard to catch now. KYLE BASS: No, I agree. I’m just saying that if the US is looking
to sanction bad actors, and let’s just say bad sovereign actors, and people within those
sovereigns, we can actually stop it today. Or let’s say- stop it, we can actually make
it really difficult for them to move substantial amounts of capital anywhere or do business
with US banks. Or Western banks. KATHRYN HAUN: When they’re traced, and when
they’re caught, I agree that that is true. But I would also say, at what cost you do
that? You have 2 billion people in the world today
who don’t have a bank account, who have zero access to financial services. They can’t pay for things easily. And aside from paying for things or storing
value, they also are not able to do basic things like get a loan. And so, you’ve got 2 billionKYLE BASS: This
is the idea from mobile banking. KATHRYN HAUN: Sure. And you’ve got 2 billion people with no access
to it. What mobile banking implies you have a bank
account. So, crypto really offers 2 billion people
the ability to accessKYLE BASS: They’re positive things. Crypto in Argentina, crypto in Venezuela and
these countries that have the sovereigns really blown, either politically, or financially
or both. KATHRYN HAUN: Yeah. Hyperinflation economies. KYLE BASS: Yeah, it’s been a way for people
to actually save the store of value of their savings instead of let some rogue government
basically light it on fire. And so by the way, maybe I haven’t even told
you this. Now, I’m a shareholder of a crypto company. KATHRYN HAUN: You did mention that. KYLE BASS: I came in kicking and screaming
through an acquisition. But now I’m rooting for it in its totality. And I’ve just sat on the sidelines all along
because I have to see a logical, regulated, positive use for this asset class for me to
jump in with my assets. But those early pioneers, again, these are
the people that just went west for the gold rush. They made fortunes. I wasn’t in that tip of the spear, I’m waiting
for it to settle down and figure out how to properly operate it in an environment where
there is a regulator, where there is a CFTC, or the SEC, or the Fed, or whoever the regulator
is going to be. I actually believe that these assets will
be something, there’ll be some asset that actually holds this store of value and medium
of exchange. KATHRYN HAUN: Right. And so, you have those assets and things need
to be solved for that to happen too by the way. I mean you talked about Venezuela, there’s
no denying that crypto prices have been all over. They are volatile so far. Once upon a time, gold also experienced quite
a bit of volatility as you know, particularly in the ’70s, it lost 30% of its value in a
very short timeframe. And so, right now, as a medium of exchange,
crypto hasn’t yet achieved its full promise or even, frankly, even close to it because
of the volatility. KYLE BASS: It won’t until volatility comes
down. KATHRYN HAUN: And that’s where things like
staple coins come into play. You have USDC as a good example, where for
every dollar of USDC have an actual dollar in a bank somewhere. That’s one model of staple coins, fiat backed,
there are also algorithmic staple coins, which is essentially, and this gets really blow
your mind complicated, but it’s essentially a smart contract that adjusts what the collateral
is backing the staple coin. And so, this is a whole other variety of staple
coins that we have. And so, there are fiat backed but then there
are also crypto asset backed. And so, there is some collateral backing it,
but it’s all controlled by this autonomous self-executing smart contract. KYLE BASS: Dear Lord. KATHRYN HAUN: Very complicated. KYLE BASS: So, you guys are on the forefront
of I think a new industry, a new asset class, something that’s, I think, mathematically
and intellectually so fascinating. And then practically, to interface with the
old world, there are going to be frictions that continue. And let’s hope that the bad actors get taken
out of this space and that I think this space is going to grow like crazy with or without
additional deep regulation. But I think knowing you and knowing what you
guys are doing is, it’s been fun, and I really appreciate you taking the time to sit and
talk about these things. I think people are going to find it to be

100 thoughts on “Dismantling the Silk Road Drug Ring (w/ Kyle Bass and Kathryn Haun)”

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  2. And we are giving these fed agents complete access to our phones, bank accounts, etc. Then she is for creating decentralized way of laundering money to most likely Chinese!

  3. Coo Coo clock if she thinks any major government is going to let this happen. They will put her and the crypto guys into a block of cement first and drop into pacific .

  4. Ross Ulbrich getting a life sentence for a first offense non violent crime is insane.
    The govt just doesnt like competition to their drug running schemes. Funny CIA linked aircraft can crash with tons of coke onboard and no one asks why?

  5. There is at least 1 thing all govt. employees that reach positions of power have in common. They can tell any story and make themselves appear absolutely righteous in the part they played.

  6. So two government agents were stealing millions and blackmailing and she won't even mention their names!

  7. Narc. Free ross. you did a completely immoral thing, and I hope you finally come to your senses before the end of your days.

  8. He is a funny cat the old Kyle Bass at times. I love all the references to SWIFT and the bad actors. The bad actors that the righteous US can use their benevolent and non political actions against at a whim. I suppose that begs the question Kyle, what do you do when the Administrator of the SWIFT system IS the bad actor!!?

  9. Liking the disagreement. Have to say I side with Kyle on this. Bad actors are likely to be the early adapters and would milk the system for as long as they can before any residual benefits could trickle down to the poor have-nots.

  10. Kathryn's story sounds like she thinks DPR put the hit on Curtis Greene when it was the feds that staged it all. Does she know or is she just lost in the whole scheme? She seems to be proud that she is part of the continued enslavement of peoples rights. She will wake up one day and realize what she is a part of.

  11. Who gets to label someone a "Bad Actor" Was John Perkins a "Bad Actor" or a hero of USA financial hegemony ? Lets decentralize labeling of bad actors.

  12. What happened to Ross is a travesty. He deserves clemency or at the very least a fair trial (one that includes all the information on the corrupt agent).

  13. Since 911 I've learned the elite Crooks are all departments of this government, the rest of the world knows who the most arrogant, cunning, murderous thugs are, thus the dollar is being dumped, tariffs being placed, and isolation ineffect! Crazy just harassing, torturing, democracy run a muck lol!

  14. Get the U.S. military out of Afghanistan. Follow The Money to the guilty parties. The Big Pharma/ U.S. Congress Connection!

  15. What a double standard. Two FBI agents Steal 21,000 bitcoin. From customers of Silk Road. They get seven years. Ross Aubry stole nothing. Made a website. Gets two life sentences +40 years

  16. Sounds like just another government goon to me. She gets to carry a gun but she also prosecutes others for doing the very same thing. People who make the laws never intend for them to apply to themselves.

  17. from this K. Feds OWN TESTIMONY it really looks like Silk Road was a Rogue Govt Black Operation that was falsely pinned on some nut teenager whilst the Feds had already drained 150 USD Million an done years of illegal drug transactions ….Yay Vote HRC 4 Prez

  18. Also dont forget, that in another interview, kyle basically advocated gun confiscation. Muh 'freedom'

    I wonder how would he react, if I advocate to confiscate his wealth?

  19. The Constitution does not grant the federal government the authority to regulate drugs. They only claim the right through abuse of the commerce clause. When they first made marijuana illegal they knew this so they said you can't sell marijuana without a tax stamp, then didn't issue any tax stamps. In order to make alcohol illegal during prohibition they had to pass a constitutional amendment. Hopefully the new supreme court appointees will stop this.

  20. Pretty sobering how naive and gullible one of the obviously smarter, more ethical people involved in federal law enforcement can be. Fact is when government officials stink it is usually because they are rotten. It is also sobering how vast resources are plowed into catching minor players while the big fish are protected.

  21. I suppose that an ethical prosecutor like Kathryn doesn't get assigned to the most egregious cases that would lead her to bad players in government, banking, intelligence agencies, transnational corporations, etc.

  22. Great interview, Kyle! It's nice to see someone who was previously fighting to shutdown Silk Road, now be an advocate for the tech.

  23. It certainly wouldn't be convenient for her to entertain the moral and ethical position of libertariansbecause it would then caused her to have to look at whether or not she acted morally and ethically on the level of respect for our ancient ancestors, and their ancient free market practices. We've somehow accepted that privately owned governments are operating in the right moral and ethical paradigm. These types of positions in discussions are intellectually dishonest for those who are starting to understand the pyramid system of this world and all that it entails on every level from socio-economic to psychosocial to financial and monetary and how that continues to be the root cause of degeneration of humanities collective human spirit. They cannot acknowledge that silk road or the so-called black market is a biproduct of our inherent nature to seek out participation in our ancestral free market place, as well, it's in turn our intrinsic means of garnishing for.ourselves , sound mind, self-worth and maturityas well as the capacity to Foster and nurture love, empathy and forgiveness. And these six primary components of human spirit can only be achieved through the unfettered participation my human beings to participate in a true genuine free market. It's not the only the so called human resources that must amputate their human spirit but our central planners as well, everyone looses.

  24. The hubris of these “ people”…?!? They sound like Hillary Clinton speaking about her valuable insight and contribution to international mafia development

  25. Just another thot that happened to notice the huge amounts of money going around in the crypto world and is trying to place herself somewhere in the scheme, preferably some non-technical position in management, marketing, board director or why not company founder.

  26. Just another thot that happened to notice the huge amounts of money going around in the crypto world and is trying to place herself somewhere in the scheme, preferably some non-technical position in management, marketing, board director or why not company founder.

  27. K.H.: (Paraphrasing) "…criminal enterprise = libertarian paradise…" Remember, in a police state all unauthorized activity is criminal, e.g., all the black market commerce is criminal. In the USSA(United Socialist States of America) citizens exist for the state, i.e., as host exists for the parasite. Of course, the state myth claims the opposite. And the voters, believing being ruled is freedom/security, proudly and ignorantly support their rulers. Rule by king/autocrats (aristocracy) is dead, long live the new rulers, the politicians/bureaucrats/LEOs.

  28. The state is an institution run by gangs of murderers, plunderers and thieves, surrounded by willing executioners, propagandists, sycophants, crooks, liars, clowns, charlatans, dupes and useful idiots – an institution that dirties and taints everything it touches.
    ——Hans-Hermann Hoppe

  29. I stopped watching at 1:12 as it didn't feel right. I read the comments and now I can see why! I should watch the rest to make my own opinion though.

  30. Looks like the Feds planned a way to steal over 100 million dollars, while framing an innocent man named Ross. And this woman is so very proud of her work.

  31. Minute 34:20 and she starts speaking my language. Dapps is a word you will hear a lot of in the future! She gets it!

  32. So this chick was SO sure no federal agents were criminals, because you know, that stuff just NEVER happens.
    Except, it not only happened in this case, it happened AT LEAST twice.
    I say, "at least" because isn't it funny that she chose to suddenly bug out of her government career and go into private venture capital work?
    Venture capital funds don't just bring you on board because you are a former prosecutor. She had no prior experience, no technical knowledge, nothing that woud indicate that she would be qualified for this work.
    I wonder WHAT her qualifications could be? $150 million perhaps?

  33. The war on drugs is all about the Feds protecting their turf. The war in Afghanistan is all about the Feds expanding their turf using YOUR tax dollars. The massive drug problem worldwide is their main business including I bet the recent explosion in fentanyl that they are blaming on China. No simple dealers/smugglers can move 60,000 tonnes of coke alone a year unnoticed without the Feds knowing.

  34. Yes tell us how you did it so we can overcome this obstacle the world needs freedom not prohibition and we the people have spoken we want what we want and if you try to take it away there will be a war on the streets you will not win the drug war is a war against the American people and we will fight till the last Soldier against oppression f*** the Christians f*** the GOP

  35. Blockchain needs to be worked on a little bit more this just proves that if it can be traced it's not working properly better encryption needs to happen

  36. What a nasty jew.. The true story of Silk Road involves competition with the CIA/Mossad as far as crypto and exchange of illicit goods.

    Don't forget, obviously mosssad influenced child networking rings have been left entirely free to operate, while drugs which impact freedom of consciousness are not. The Epstein case is all you need to know.

  37. Kyle Bass sounds like a communist. He is so easily swayed that they are bad and makes judgements on Tor thinking if you use it you are bad. Maybe he is just brainwashed.

  38. The irony or this lady saying that 99.999% of Federal law enforement officers are heros before telling of the two very senior Federal law enforcement officers who extorted and stole over $150mm is just delicious. A very senior Secret Service Agent stole $150mm. What is the criminals name and where is he serving time in general population? More likely is he got promoted and a pay raise. Thank Hashem that our President Donald J Trump is wise enough not to entrust the Secret Service with his security but that he has private security protecting him.

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