Discussion Panel on Cryptocurrencies – U.S. Transhumanist Party / Institute of Exponential Sciences



greetings ladies and gentlemen we are now live today Sunday February 18th 2018 my name is janati Stolyarov ii I am the chairman of the United States transhumanist party and today I am proud to host a panel jointly with the Institute of exponential Sciences an organization we have been allied with for a long time and to have as my cold moderator Damien's if kovitch who is the president of the Institute of exponential Sciences welcome Damien and I am also pleased to have three expert panelists who will spend two hours discussing today how crypto currencies and blockchain based technologies will possibly affect future economies and everyday life of course this is a broad topic and we have intentionally selected a panel with diverse perspectives on it so without further ado our esteemed panelists our chant along who is the creator of crypto city.com which is a social media website focused on building the future world of cryptocurrencies by connecting crypto enthusiasts in the general public about crypto currencies he is also a full-time trader and participates in the hyper state coin project which is a Bitcoin alternative that uses the very energy efficient proof of stake protocol also known as POS which we will discuss in the course of this panel welcome Shanta then we have Laurence Wes who is a Dutch engineer and chief engineering officer at the Institute of exponential Sciences furthermore he is the owner of intro fix a company focused on custom 3d printed products and software solutions he has also studied artificial intelligence and is very interested in transhumanism longevity entrepreneurship cryptocurrencies blockchain technology and art and a lot more he is a regular speaker for the institute of exponential sciences and is very committed to educating the public on accelerated technological developments and exponential sciences and finally we have Moritz barely who in his work for exosphere Academy a learning and problem-solving community has organized a space elevator boot camp an artificial intelligence conference and an aetherium training course while also authoring a primer on the emerging discipline of alternate reality design as blockchain reporter for the Berlin Blockade startup noise fund he has educated the city's venture capital and startup scene as well as the broader public on the applications of this groundbreaking technology his work has appeared in a number of blockchain related and libertarian media outlets such as coin Telegraph the Freeman's perspective Bitcoin comm and the school sucks project welcome everyone and let us start with your introductory remarks Chum – how do you think cryptocurrencies and blockchain based technologies will affect future economies and everyday life butantã okay sorry about that was muted okay well blockchain based technology is really going to change a lot of things that we've currently already seen you know with the government's and banks scampering you know about the technology and how they're gonna go about it it's an alternative to the current system that we have and what that means is a lot of things are gonna be decentralized and with block based you know blockchain based technology it's also going to be connected with for example the facilitator of Internet of Things so machine to machine transaction people the Machine transactions and it's basically going to be couple the you know the medium of exchange from a lot of people from local to global and that's going to make a very big impact especially people that or that don't have the resources for example banks you know people that don't have bank accounts especially in less developed countries however a lot of those people have mobile phones and especially on a local level people will now have the option and that this will only increase is they will have the option of using a form of exchange that they believe in and something that they support rather than having only one choice which is the current Fiat system and and that's very important because then you get rid of the middleman so the transactions that occur regardless whether it's finance or anything else will be less friction which would be much easier to transact and I think that's really the important thing and it will definitely enable or empower a lot of people to connect in exchange where normally it would be very cost prohibitive to do thank you John Joe for those remarks and you have touched on a lot of themes that we will explore later on in this discussion Lawrence what are your introductory thoughts on this subject my thoughts on it are the blockchain technology can kind of be seen as some sort of an Internet 2.0 because when the internet was first introduced it was primarily composed of a small network of a few computers that were able to communicate to each other that was followed by the World Wide Web of course we're dedicated servers provided services for other clients and currently blockchain technology is of course where everything is decentralized and where there's no central server anymore so what I see in the future is that the revolution that the Internet brought along can be quite similar to the revolution that blockchain is going to bring along on the grand scheme of things Thank You Lawrence and I agree there does seem to be a revolutionary potential to this technology of course depending on how it is deployed and how widely it becomes adopted more its what are your introductory thoughts all right that's you well my introductory thoughts are that blockchains are an already obsolete technology that however have already introduced in other in innovation in basically the ability to transfer value over a digital space to the broader public that in the future will be taken over by other crypto based technologies not blockchain based technologies that are actually able to sustain and to manifest the vision that was laid out by Bitcoin and the subsequent other innovative protocols that have the idea of basically disintermediating relationships making relationships on includable so be it into a into a specific space and then extracted for value and I agree with the previous speaker about kind of the internet itself from it's very beginning having started with this kind of client-server model where we have a master/slave relationship between individual computers where there's an absolute view of truth managed by the administrator of a server and then the clients kind of being like slaves to that view and blockchain for the first time made it possible to share share value over digital space that is not copyable not arbitrarily changeable and now the next generation will introduce what I call agent centric computing or agent centric architectures where value and information gets exchanged on an agent to agents to a peer-to-peer basis where all of the code is on the individual machines that run these software's rather than on a server or the client accesses and blockchain can have got us over the initial hump and now we are seeing a Cambrian explosion of new technologies kind of taking up the baton and carrying it forward into the future yes thank you Moritz and certainly during the course of this panel we will address what some of these emerging technologies would be how they differ from blockchain how they might be an evolution upon blockchain but this is a very interesting premise that you laid out that blockchain may already be obsolete but it has paved the way for other innovations so with that damien what would you like to ask the panel well I'm wondering about how fast if the blockchain space developing we currently hear a lot of things about new technologies that are or are based on on blockchain but that take the take the technology to another level so what are what is the next step from blockchain where do we go from there all right anyone who wishes to offer thoughts on this please feel free well I think like you said previously that then the blockchain right now is currently what we're working on and it is paving the way to new technology and for us you know working on the hyper steak coin project we're also working on what's called hyper chain and that is something that is somewhat similar where it will be able to facilitate the internet of things so you know it goes beyond the the blockchain even though it in the it's built on top of the hyper state blockchain but it enables you know people to do other things kind of like a form of almost like a distributed a limited distributed form of distributed computing which is going to be very interesting especially going for in the future because it's gonna open up a lot of doors in terms of you know record-keeping and not just like for financial transaction but many many other things and this seems to be along the lines of what Moretz was discussing technologies that transcend the blockchain but perhaps build off of the premise of the blockchain so I'm curious janta with regard to your remarks on distributed computing because I've participated in various distributed computing projects over time and my laypersons understanding of the difference between blockchain and distributed computing is a blockchain is essentially a ledger where everybody who participates in the system has a record of every transaction that took place and the way you verify the integrity of a transaction is that everybody has the record of it so you don't depend on a single intermediary whereas with distributed computing at least in the projects that I've participated in which have been projects to perform calculations for scientific research or for solving complex mathematical problems there would be a central server that essentially farms out the work units to individual computers to participate in the system and then the individual computers run the calculations report the results back to the central server which then essentially validates them and the owner of the project determines what to do with those results so I'm curious how those two get combined in the approach that you're describing well the hyper snake Koide project uses what's called a proof of State protocol which is different than you know the proof of work in the term where the you don't need miners you know like or special equipments or expensive equipment and tons of electricity to run it anybody can participate and but the thing with these servers is that it needs a little bit of you know centralization to basically keep all the peers in consensus with each other otherwise they would be prone to attacks you know because if if you have differences in you know the peers then obviously you would have problems and that's one of the things that the current block chain or the hyper chain that is being worked on right now we have a white paper that's going to be coming out by the end of the first quarter but what this allows is for example the current thing that we're working on right now is a governance system and what that enables people to do is for example if they have issues or they want to work on let's say the wallet holder will be able to simply vote from their wallet through the staking process and be able to participate in the direction of the project of where the project is going and you know in that sense everybody has a form of what you know a decentralized wallet now obviously everybody's hooked up to the network the hyper state network and everybody has it's like a decentralized ledger so everybody has a copy in the same ledger and that in itself is consensus and every one of those Ledger's or every one of those wallet has to have the same information however with the hyper steak or the hyper chain it enables third party companies or individuals to be able to use the hyper chain and you know create their own somewhat applications and be able to use that and that's really the exciting part is it opens up a lot of doors to individuals and you know any type of entities or companies that wants to use the hyper chain and this is a very interesting concept now I think it is a good bridge to a question that I had in mind since you mentioned proof of stake as essentially the basis for allocating units of a cryptocurrency as opposed to proof of work which was the earlier model with Bitcoin and other alt coins that were derived from Bitcoin essentially with proof of work you have to devote a lot of computing power to quote mining these crypto currencies and as a cryptocurrency matures mining becomes more difficult to the point that there are specialized server farms essentially that mine bitcoins where as in say 2009 or 2011 a person using a desktop computer could have done it now that is essentially impossible to do it here is Larry it's very expensive for the individual to be able to participate so you know with the proof of work especially in the Bitcoin it it would be very difficult for the individual to try to come eat to get into that space where the proof of stake it's very affordable where anybody can be able to participate all you need is a working computer any you know basic computer or it'll even run on a Raspberry Pi so it makes it very affordable than easy to to participate you know versus the all the other alternative and it's very efficient and I think that's really the important thing is you know for anybody to be able to participate so other thoughts from the panel on proof of work versus proof of stake and also how that would relate to Damien's question in terms of the development of blockchain based technologies and where you see the future of that development going will it be through more of a proof-of-work basis or a fake basis or something else well I honestly speak to that so I mean the my introduction I alluded to the onslaught of new generation crypto technologies and so from my understanding the proof of work and proof of stakes solutions to achieving consensus which is really just like consensus and both of these algorithms are in place to ensure what is called intrinsic data integrity meaning that once data is committed to this record it cannot be altered and it cannot be it can't be changed by anybody arbitrarily and so all of the records are stored but this is also one of the problems of blockchain because everybody has to hold all of the data and because these algorithms are so expensive in terms of energy and even financial cost they drive the centralization of the entire network ever closer to basically one monopolist I mean right now the Bitcoin network power 80% of it I believe are controlled by just five miners or five mining tools and so in principle there's nothing stopping those five to collude on changing the network other than a phone call basically it's just a phone call away to do that so even though in theory and at the very beginning it was true that Bitcoin was decentralized and was distributed it was impossible to change the network's integrity through economic means this today is no longer the case and this is because the proof of work and proof of stake algorithms drive exacerbate the Pareto principle which already is so horrendous in financial and any kind of endeavor where creativity and ability distinguish themselves and kind of compound have this compounding effect on each other in this digital system when you have the capital you will have access to more capital you can generate more returns which you can then use again to generate even more returns and so you have this driving of centralization now the next generation of crypto technologies that don't use blockchain but still maintain intrinsic data integrity the one that I'm most familiar with or there are several ones actually there's one there's Rui blocks which has currently some problems so it's not perfect there's hash graph which is kind of taking the blockchain idea but then making several kind of chains work together and interweave then you have Yoda which has problems which I don't think is a credible project as well and then what my favorite project and which I think have takes this all the way to its extreme to the absolute extreme in terms of agent centric computing is called hollow chain and basically what it does is it guarantees data integrity through basically a combination of a validating Charlotte distributed hash table basically the technology we already are familiar with from torrents so whenever you want to download a file from somebody else's computer what you do is you go online pirate bay or whatever else you consult for your favorite files you look for a a particular file by name that file then gives you a hash on this hash table which then allows you to look at that file directly on other people's computers and then you get the connection and you can download that that's how torrents work beautiful technology old proven actually the start of the kind of pirate movement as well I think it's it's great stuff and then it combines that with what is called hash chains but also a proven technology and have been part of the internet for a long time especially if you are if you've ever worked with github you're familiar with hash chains they are basically what make isn't able to have versioning have integrity assured that the code that it's there is the code that was put there and all this stuff is is guaranteed by that and then combining those two with specific application code in holo chain you get the properties of Internet data integrity which blockchain pioneered by widget cannot achieve at scale and at reasonable cost on end even speed I mean the Bitcoin network right now is I think at seven transactions per second fees are skyrocketing there of course more innovative blockchain frameworks that are faster that are more effective etc but due to the simple architectural choices made from the beginning to ensure the integrity of the network blockchain has inherent hindrances to scaling effectively and so in my estimation until the blockchain community as a whole figures out a way to shard block chains or to solve the scaling problem in any other way it is an outdated and probably absolutely going to fail a way of organizing this data integrity system there is some ways you could migrate from a blockchain at a specific point in time and then like reset all the records but maintain balances and then move to a new blockchain that's one way of doing it there are many ways you can do this but it's not hasn't been done and it's it's not likely to happen that way so I mean I won't go into the technical details because we're talking more to a general audience I think about everybody hears from it with cryptography but suffice it to say that there are other things coming and I think the the the wave forward for blockchain specifically is to ensure high value use cases like the like super high value fine use cases where let's say a title registry or high-value assets securing that kind of I can see as a valuable application for back chain technologies but the kind of micro transactions or even non-financial use cases of intrinsic data integrity are unlikely to in the future be done by large right yes thank you for those insights Moritz and there is a lot that we can go into many directions this conversation can take based on your remarks I wanted to also ask Lawrence what are your views regarding proof of work proof of stake agent centric computing any of the emerging technologies that Moritz discuss as well as what the places for blockchain in terms of future financial transactions well my expertise is really exactly in proof of stake for his work but for as far as my knowledge goes is just my personally I have a lot more faith in the proof of stake concept also since I've been following the etherium change for a long time and I've been seeing that most investors are tending to grow more towards aetherium of course but if Bitcoin is a lot bigger these days but that's more because it was original cryptocurrencies and I think that it's had its time a bit so the proof state concept also seems more far more durable for in the future and I think that's the way we would be to grow but I don't think that this is the final solution or anything I think there is still a bit of in its infancy shoes sort of spear so to speak and I'm not quite sure at this point where it's heading and I don't think that anyone really has to find a solution at this point at this point in time so while I think that proof of safety concept itself is better I'm not quite sure that word areas I wouldn't say that this is really the way to go all right thank you Lawrence now add a median I will ask you to pose the next question and after that I will have a question as well about Bitcoin but Damian you go first well I would like to ask or current panelists about whether the do you think that cryptocurrency in its current form has a future or is it just a stepping stone to another technology like just a start of something much bigger well who's on first all right well personally I think that it is a stepping stone for something bigger I mean cryptocurrency has of course even even today it's still just some farms with speculation you can barely buy anything with it since I believe 2013 some complicated companies have tried to introduce the concept of paying with Bitcoin of autocratic currencies and certain shops I mean even here the netherlands amsterdam is considered to be the bitcoin city and that's been for about one or two years I believe but it's not really catching on even despite the insane growth that Bitcoin has had in the in the past year so the adoption by the public isn't really going that fast as people might have expect so that might also be some sort of an evidence that cryptocurrencies as they are now are not really going to become the thing that we all hoped for eventually but I do think that indeed that this Dania said that this will prove to be a stepping stone for something bigger and I think that's also a reason why there are well over a thousand different cryptocurrencies more at this point I see this something that's snow in development as people are trying all different kinds of configurations trying new different how do you say it different versions of the same concept trying to figure out which one works best and I think we're all waiting for a new breakthrough that's really going to make it possible to make cryptocurrencies yeah a viable new new system between the economic current economic system because the hopes have been i four cryptocurrencies to replace the current financial system and I don't think that's something that's going to happen in the near future if cryptocurrencies are going to remain as they are now so great a new bathroom definitely needs to have on the front before that's going to happen all right Thank You Lawrence now chanta what are your thoughts about crypto currencies and whether they are the future or whether they're just a stepping stone toward something different I think with cryptocurrency and the current blockchain is just basically a doorway it's just the beginning it's not even scratching the surface of what we're exploring but is it is very exciting and in the future we might not even nice Bitcoin for what it is today or any other cryptocurrency for that matter you know currently with Bitcoin it's it's getting fairly expensive to use and you know due to the the power requirements which is complete otally insane right now so it's very difficult for people to participate in in that respect you know especially in in mining but on the other hand the current size of the blockchain with Bitcoin which is currently you know almost 200 gigabytes of information and that's the current ledger and that's huge so it's not really important well and in order for people to currently use that on there let's say mobile devices they actually have to use wallets that are somewhat you know that retrieve information from a centralized server in order to facilitate that because a lot of those devices well they simply wouldn't be able to have the 200 gigabytes of information on your mobile device so it's not very portable in that respect but in the future you know that will have to change and especially because not every device is going to also be connected all the time so that is something that will also have to be considered as well and I think it's very exciting to see a lot of other companies or projects working to tackle that in that respect now in terms of you know creating a an easier barrier of entry I I think currently the the proof of stake will allow a lot of people to be able to participate in that in yeah because of the low power requirement that is necessary for people to to to be able to get on to the network and be able to participate but I think the the most important thing is like any technology is through the adoption I mean it's all based it all revolves around the community if you don't have the community regardless with the technology that you have if nobody uses it then it's kind of moot at that point so building the community is just as important as the as the technology that is being developed as well and and I think that's going to be the difference between the technology that will continue to drive or you know just die off yes Thank You Kanta and you brought up a lot of them noteworthy observations the transaction fees for sending any quantity of bitcoins right now are in the tens of dollars between approximately twenty and fifty dollars roughly because the exchange rate between Bitcoin and US dollars continues to fluctuate dramatically but that pretty much rules out any sort of everyday consumer oriented type of transaction as you've pointed out and the blockchain size is indeed also an impediment because I became introduced to cryptocurrencies fairly early I try to pursue the very fundamental route of downloading the entire block chain onto my computer and I used the Bitcoin or wallet it did pretty much occupy the entire disk space of one of my computers in order to be able to do that and I do not have large bitcoin holdings I acquired a tiny amount at the time through donations to my website the rational argument ATAR and if I had liquidated them during the cryptocurrency boom in December I might have gotten say $50 for those bitcoins but the transaction thieves would have consumed pretty much all of that amount so it wasn't worth it to liquidate and those are indeed serious obstacles to mainstream consumer use so Moritz what are your thoughts about crypto currencies as a stepping stone toward perhaps something different something more consumer-friendly well I think I've already made my basic view pretty clear so I won't go into that you do too much detail anymore I basically just think that again blockchain based systems where the first stepping stone we're moving towards these agent-based systems or a geocentric systems but to make it more from blockchain based systems is this understanding of money and currency as being two distinct concepts and that these are not equivalent and that currencies are a much broader category than just money so if you think about money and Bitcoin and and other blockchain based systems trying to replicate money in the financial space what they're doing is they're trying to make uncopyable digital objects that you can move between individual holders and so the data or the objects are independent of any individual user they're attributed to any an individual holder but they're kind of these independent objects now currencies are kind of a way that we collectively measure what we find valuable both on an individual and on a collective level so you can think of for example a a bachelor's degree as a reputation currency that you can acquire by performing the required work to achieve credits which are a basically a time-based currency and then to also get the right grades in those classes which are performance metric or a performance currency and if you do all of the required things that give you these currencies I know what this is kind of understanding of currencies a bit unusual but if you just bear with me for a moment you the the the the flow of education throughout the institution of the university is structured in a way that then ends up with you receiving that final kind of token of appreciation or reputation which then you can transact for example right it's something that you can acquire that has value distinct value but that's not transact about but it's still a valuable thing and so we need to see this notion of currency much broader it's kind of a formal symbol system that shapes and enables flows of information and values throughout a collective with that kind of more esoteric understanding of of currency in mind when you then apply this to the agent centric architectures you see that you need to like these these currencies are not these kind of tokens independent of any particular person but they're implement in a different way cryptocurrencies in these agents and Riccar connectors are implemented as mutual credit cryptocurrencies so in a mutual credit currency regardless of where that script or not what happens is the entire balance in the system is always zero it's basically just an accounting system for all the participants to always equal out like if you are if you have a business you always want to have the same amount of credit to debit so you always have these cancelling each other out things what these ages eccentric architectures achieve is to generalize this kind of a system to an entire network of people who might not even share company or other kind of group boundaries other than the users of that system and where whenever one person has a positive account another person has a negative account this is kind of the way that we implement currencies in agents and Ricardo textures and it's it enables a whole range of use cases that in the blockchain paradigm are not possible simply because these tokens are and so expensive to account for to account for their movement between different accounts that the mere computation required to account for them is more expensive than the actual transaction value itself and so if you want to have broad-based acceptance of cryptocurrencies you need to have a way to kind of badge microtransactions overtime and then just clear them whenever they reach a certain herbal or certain kind of value that that clears like it's high enough to make that worth the effort of the network and then if you achieve that you need one more thing to actually have a broad-based acceptance of cryptocurrencies which is an ability to blacklist bad actors from the network and once you have those components you can actually achieve a cryptocurrency at scale that kind of fulfills the original vision of Bitcoin and other currencies to have a true digital cash this independent of control that you can transact with anybody at any size of amount and that is kind of uncontrollable by a central medium and it doesn't require you to do some fancy stuff with technology or have unlimited hard drive space available yes thank you Moritz by the way Donora Delphine in the comments has stated that your thoughts on the subject are brilliant so you are getting a gift some audience approval here now it's interesting because the ideas you mentioned having Clearing House essentially to batch transactions and clear multiple transactions at the same time as well as the ability to keep out bad actors is essentially what banks do today except banks are fraught with other problems being essentially intermediaries in a position of power that have the ability to game the system and the political rules in their favor but if those functions can be addressed in perhaps a decentralized manner that doesn't create a new protocol itself right right then that would definitely be quite a promising innovation now I think all of the comments made thus far a good bridge to my next question and the premise of the question is this I think it has been mentioned already that bitcoin was the first cryptocurrency it is the best-known cryptocurrency to the general public and as a result on exchanges especially between cryptocurrencies and fiat currencies Bitcoin commands the highest exchange rate thus far that exchange rate has experienced extreme volatility unlike perhaps anything else that the world has yet seen and the question that I have is are the people who are currently investing or speculating in Bitcoin going to be sorely disappointed because some of them may think bitcoin is the crypto currency or the strongest cryptocurrency but in reality might it just be the first and best-known one that is going to be superseded by something else fairly soon and the people who put in tens of thousands of dollars and some who imprudently say took out mortgages to purchase Bitcoin are going to be let's say left with very little or nothing what do you think in terms of the next few years and how this will play out I think Bitcoin definitely is you know they do have the first-mover effect and they are the most popular but as time goes by and more miners or especially mining forms getting to the space it's going to become more difficult and more resource utilization especially in terms of power when you consider Bitcoin it's using more power than you know a portion of countries you know it's pretty insane and the problem with that is as it gets more difficult it requires more resources to be able to mind Bitcoin as well so again it becomes very cost prohibitive and if it gets to the point where where it gets really difficult to mind Bitcoin what that means is that it slows down the blockchain and if if the miners don't mind what happens is the problem with that is that the transactions don't move the block change don't move and I think that's one of the major problems and that's why we're seeing lots of delays plus the other thing is the block size so one thing that the proof of stake has been a you know that has addressed is basically more it's actually touched on a interesting topic in terms of micro transactions you know the problem with Bitcoin today is that it's very expensive and when it gets very difficult the miners takes longer to find a block and what that means is that it also slows down you know lock pane were the proof of state concept kind of resolves that because the blockchain will always continue to move regardless and that's really the nice thing so it's pretty frictionless when when that is concerned however it you know currently is not the solution however it does offer a cheaper and more fluid alternative in that regard so in the future obviously you know the technology will continue to develop and continue to exchange to change and right now I think the most exciting part about crypto is how it relates to the individual or group and how it applies to them once they look beyond the you know of just financial aspect of the technology I think that is where the exciting part against you know where for example Moritz talked about currency and currency is you know just a form of value that is greed between two parties or more so what for example let's say the hyper chain technology that's currently being worked on for Hyper stake is that currency could be anything it could be beans it could be you know cabbages it could be that applies to the specific to the individual or the group for the two or more parties and I think that's the exciting part about you know what's going forward in the future is it's no longer about one currency or you know or the US dollar or any fiat currency but something that is applicable to the individual or group that is participating within those groups and I think that's where the really exciting part is because it's no longer a few currency but multitude of currency that is applicable to you know the different parties interesting so chanta building off of that let's say that there's a desire within the cryptocurrency community to let's say help out those who invested in Bitcoin and participated in that Network even though let's say at some future date it is determined Bitcoin was a stepping stone it's obsolete it should be superseded but we don't want the people who contributed to that system to lose fortunes as a result of that evolution so could they potentially use bitcoins the way they would use beans or US dollars or any other medium of exchange on a hyper chain or some future evolution of the blockchain so that all of that investment isn't lost there's still some recognition that some effort went into it and that it may still have some value what do you think of that possibility in regards to the value and retain that value is really up to the it's a matter of confidence it's really up to the community for example the Bitcoin community if they feel that bitcoin is no longer vehicle and there's other alternatives then you know then there's a good chance that people will flock to other available technologies or tools you know just like the same thing happens in the currency space of you know let's say the Fiat system and that happens on a daily basis where you know if one currency is starting to devalue obviously they'll go into something else and we're starting to already see that we're you know obviously where the current traditional currency system will continue to do you and that is one of the reason why a lot of people are flocking into Bitcoin because you know it is somewhat deflationary in that regard so and and plus you know it's limited but however you know there are billions of people in in the world with very limited supply but as far as a you know retaining the value that is is really dependent on the confidence of what the community believes that value is you know well they flock to other technologies I think at some point we you know we're definitely seeing that you know there there's definitely thousands of alternative out there and as far as hyper stake it's only one of the alternatives but I think the important thing is to see many many projects out there that is making that is paving the way for newer technologies and newer approaches for the solution and obviously there's no one solution you know to to really address the the you know the the current situation Eve that you mentioned yes Thank You tanta and now Lawrence what are your thoughts about Bitcoin and its future whether a it is already the cryptocurrency of the past or whether it might have a future and if it does and what form that would be well I think Bitcoin as mentioned previously has indeed a first mover advantage and because of that I think it's Bitcoin has become like the public face of blockchain and cryptocurrencies in general what you've seen in 2017 distance far more people hope even the hard core cryptocurrency enthusiasts with also the more common investors have become increasingly attracted through the whole concept of cryptocurrencies like oh I've seen in the news that Bitcoin has gone up from one thousand to three thousand dollars in the past few months so they all wanted to jump in and obviously the most well-known critic currency was Bitcoin of course but yeah since Bitcoin was the first that yes of course it doesn't make it the best cryptocurrency on the long run it has been the most well known of course it was also introduced even that Wall Street's where they offered and the future options to invest in but I wouldn't necessarily say that bitcoin is already practically death I think it's it still has some future but I think that within my guess would be that within two maybe three years Bitcoin will not have the largest market cap anymore and I think that it's most likely be superseded by I see Liam or probably iota and first place all right Thank You Lawrence and Lawrence what are your thoughts with regard to the future of Bitcoin as well as any of the other cryptocurrencies that have been mentioned let's bring etherium into this discussion as well since it is an evolution of the cryptocurrency concept in the sense that it enables more than just singular transactions that enables the creation of smart contracts for instance or even decentralized autonomous organizations so what are your thoughts in that regard so with regards to Bitcoin I'm I kind of have two perspectives like I'm at the same time incredibly optimistic about Bitcoin and incredibly pessimistic and it might sound weird but it's it's because of two reasons one I'm incredibly optimistic because it has and still does have a huge community of very smart people trying to work out problems that are that the problem that the technology has I myself however am pessimistic that they will be able to solve those problems simply because the architectural choice from the very beginning prevent it from competing with these new generation technologies that take a very different to kind of fundamental technological approach that don't have those same problems that the blockchain has now Bitcoin will continue to matter for a year or two or several even until it runs into the energy problem that it's just the energy necessary to continue the network itself will exceed the value of the bitcoins generated at the margins for the miners and so the the Hope network will come to a halt unless they find some other way to either decrease that that costs or to increase the value of those bitcoins or to some other way lighten the load on the entire network with regards to two cryptocurrency in general and other systems now aetherium is an interesting system I think it also has the most potential after but going to become even more used and and accepted it already has the largest developer community it has the largest nodes a large number of nodes it has the most acceptance from existing institutions like the old corporate world as well as governmental bodies so it definitely has those Network advantages but again it also has the in my perspective although of course there are others fatal flaw of being a blockchain based system and until they find a way to scale that I'm pessimistic that they will be able to have that thing survive especially once these new technologies do get going and actually kind of come into their own and so that is going to happen very quickly so the problem even though they have these huge network effects and remember they got these networks because it were very beginning we were able to kind of kind of gather up people from other systems where they were dissatisfied and scatter them around them I think we need to think about these systems in terms of evolutionary capacity and learning capacity in the way that blockchain based systems Bitcoin theory and whatever they are they don't have an inbuilt governance layer meaning that or they they might have some like rough governance mechanisms but they are so rough and so poorly steerable let's say that that they are unable to adapt to new information quickly enough especially if the new ones are able to do that and are even less expensive and faster and have higher throughput all of that so I think that's the future of the cryptocurrencies that the shift will occur from token based cryptocurrencies to kind of these a geocentric mute required cryptocurrencies and they will just slowly and maybe at an accelerating rate Eclipse the old ones and I hope that there's a way to give the people who bought into Bitcoin a way out let's say but it for any way out there has to be somebody else who accepts them so it's kind of it's hard to find a way that everybody walks away from this unscathed and I just want to make one last thing clear I'm by no means an opponent to Bitcoin success I would like nothing more than for Bitcoin or a theorem or all of these other systems to succeed I just cannot from a professional perspective recommend anybody or or tell them that this is the case from my understanding and that that they will they will actually kind of be safe investments and so I have personal I have personally recommended to my friends and family at some point to get into this and to be part of this just to understand as well but never more than they are able to lose and and kind of see it seen as something new but not something that they should put their savings and so people who put up mortgages for this I'm incredibly sorry but you should not if you try to find a way to get out of this or to to play with it and not bet the house on it if you would look at the top three technologies that would supersede Bitcoin or etherium what would they be what would you say from pressure professional point of view that are the best competitors so right now those are the ones the ones that are currently already existing our hash graph which kind of takes the blockchain idea kind of adds another dimension or kind of like expands it then there is bit lattice which is an experimental project which I have no bit lattice which is a an experimental project it's a bit like Bitcoin and then lattice like la titi IC e which is an experimental project which I have no ability purely from a mathematical and technical perspective to evaluate properly so I leave that up to other smarter people than myself but it doesn't definitely introduces very interesting concepts about lattice around lattice based cryptography not elliptic curve cryptography and so that we solve some problems iota I cannot recommend because it has security problems and it seems like the smartest people that I know think of it as a laughingstock basically and then Africa I already mentioned but this is proprietary so it's not an open-source project so I'm more for open source things I hope that this will also succeed but I can't say it's the solution and then the thing that I think like that I personally am invested in emotionally and that say timewise and not money-wise so far except for supporting the crowd fund I've done is cool change so and holo train is not a cryptocurrency it is not a network a platform it is a technology and what that means is that if you want to build a currency application with little chain you can do that so it's a blockchain competitor in that sense that does intrinsic 1/10 agree through agent centric computing and using these technologies that I've already outlined and I think with their designs which are inherently kind of built around biologically inspired process these processes that work in nature that actually scale and that don't hit diminishing economies of scale early they're actually able to pull off the original vision of Bitcoin which was to have that kind of digital cache but that now has kind of been scoped down to a digital gold and I fear in the future will be kind of digital digital plastic or digital notes and those are not very well but as we know yes indeed so I am actually curious and this is derivative off of Damien's question as well there was a time period when one could mine Bitcoin using one's personal computer around 2009 to 2011 if one got into that system back in 2009 one could potentially obtain tens of thousands of bitcoins and if one just held on to them and sold them during the last boom one would have become a multi-millionaire to say the least so that was quite an interesting opportunity in the sense that one could obtain large holdings of a cryptocurrency without sacrificing much of anything essentially one just had to have a personal computer and make the decision to mine and one didn't have to become a speculator the people who entered the Bitcoin markets later on and met the house on purchasing bitcoins when the exchange rate was several thousand or ten thousand or fifteen thousand US dollars per Bitcoin are essentially speculators but do you think there would ever be an analogous opportunity in the future with regard to some of the blockchain successor technologies where an ordinary person could do something that doesn't involve a large upfront investment but just by virtue of being in the system early that person could gain significantly and asking me or everybody everybody but you're welcome to comment no I'll let the other ones go ahead first okay currently you know what I've been doing since 2014 is I've been giving away lots of hyper stake in order to introduce people to cryptocurrency and you know given the opportunity to see how it actually works the nice thing about the the hyper fake coin project is that just for the simple fact that you hold coins in the wallet the wallet holder participate in securing the network and also verifying confirmed transactions so it every wallet pretty much does the same thing as what Bitcoin does with miners just without you know the power resource requirement and without the expensive equipment and when they do that they are rewarded coins you know which is why it's called proof of stake simply by holding the coins and that's rewarded directly into their wallet to be able to participate so in that respect it does give people a very low barrier of entry I mean you know for some obviously it doesn't cost anything because I've been giving tons of coins away and I still continue to do it you know until today and I will continue to do that in the future as well every day and and more it's actually brought up a pretty important topic in terms of governance and that is something that the hyper state coin project is going to introduce in the very near future along with the hyper chain we're actually working on the white paper that will detail all the goodies of you know of what's coming ahead in the first quarter or towards the end of the first quarter and what happens is even if theum has you know has realized they are having the same issues as as with Bitcoin in terms of the mining efforts and the power requirements and you know what etherium is looking at is they you know suggested that it's a possibility that they may go into you know switching over to the POS protocol or the proof of stake protocol hyper snake has been doing that since 2014 and and you know with governance system that's very important part of the core infrastructure because what that allows is you know imagine having a government without any biases of people you know you have a set rules and it's not discriminate you know discriminatory of anybody it treats everybody the same as long as they participate in the network and I think that's very very important so if we're looking at you know huge billion-dollar cryptos like you know the etherion platform thinking of switching over to the POS protocol that's a very very important I think aspect of where things are looking to go and I think you know their recognition of that is important to really be aware of but again it's it's not the only solutions out there the technology will continue to evolve and that's happening at a very fast rate now a lot of problem with a lot of projects out there is you know is in terms of finding it's how are those projects funded and that's another thing that we're looking to address as well is going forward in the near future the hyper state project is going to be self funded from the network itself so then the project will be able to continue to develop and you know continue its marketing and support efforts and whatnot and that's going to be important for ongoing projects in the future you know regardless whether it's hyper stake or any other projects out there and I think that is one of the the important parts that really decides you know whether a project is going to continue to evolve or not going forward in the future thank you janja and now Lawrence what are your thoughts about essentially what the post Bitcoin future might look like what technologies would predominate as well as whether there are any technologies right now where there is a sufficiently low barrier to entry the ordinary people of ordinary means could participate without risking very much have a concrete answer right now but I was thinking about topping of the dimension previously so if it's not a problem I would like to add something on that part clearly okay well what I've noticed lately is obviously the cost of mining and energy consumption has become a problem certainly for Bitcoin but also for the other large cryptocurrencies so what you've seen is that people have started to do but other ways that those coins can be mined so what you've seen is that websites some websites at least have started offering people choices to either atom ship have to be shown ads or instead of that they can choose to not get any ads on the website but instead of that they offer their computer as a money device well they're viewing website and that can be a large contribution where you're talking about a website that has millions of users because that way you essentially have a mining firm that competitors comprised of a million computers that's mind coins on a regular basis yes indeed so I think this is a good bridge into the next question that I have and this will be my last question before we get into a lot of the audience questions and comments but ultimately the great promise of crypto currencies – what at the end of the last decade was to enable consumer-oriented transactions to occur in such a way that would preserve value despite devaluation of fiat currencies so I always want to be comfortable in knowing that I can go out and buy a sandwich after having done a certain unit of work let's say that is suitable for enabling me to buy that sin which no matter what happens to geopolitics to monetary policy to fiscal policy I want to be comfortable that if I've worked for it if I've earned a certain number of units I can always go out and buy that sandwich or buy that widget and I know that there are millions of other people out there who are willing to sell me sandwiches and widgets based on what I have heard that is essentially in a very layperson oriented language in the promise of crypto currencies early on so far that promise unfortunately hasn't materialized in the sense that you cannot go to your corner store and purchase a sandwich with a Bitcoin in most places throughout the world or with any of the other altcoins and another obstacle is versus a lot of the altcoins are not directly tradable for US dollars at present on coinbase one can trade Bitcoin litecoin etherium and now Bitcoin cash for US dollars and for some other fiat currencies but not all of the thousand plus they're called coin that are out there for which one has to go through a series of exchanges essentially to convert them to one of the major cryptocurrency so how can we get to that point where for a consumer seeking to use blockchain based technologies or their successors in everyday transactions this would actually be feasible and this would be a safeguard against devaluation I think currently you know even though the technology of the blockchain and also crypto in general is decentralized one of the problem that we're facing is that with these centralized technologies when it comes to the financial aspect of it you still have a centralized exchange and with a centralized exchange you know you have you still have that problem but I think going forward as people adopt you mentioned you know by being able to buy a sandwich with your Bitcoin for me it's it's just the the fact that people have to be able to wrap their head around a different form of currency than what they go that's you know that's what everybody knows and plus crypto in general for a lot of people it's difficult to get into or to get their foot in the door so to speak in regards to Bitcoin so that is another reason why in in for me I make an omission to be able to introduce crypto and to educate people about crypto not by saying hey you should invest in this but to actually give it away and you know for them to be able to experience that and for me you mentioned you know being able to buy such for me it's it really all comes down to the individual or group to say hey this is a new technology this is something I can get behind of and let me adopt this and let me how can I apply this in my daily life to the things that I currently do like for example my neighbor you know I give hyper state to my neighbor in exchange for a dinner so that's kind of like my form of exchange so it's that's I think that is like the the difficult concept for a lot of people to wrap their head around is that money or the u.s. dollar is not the only form of currency that could be used as a form of exchange and I think once people start to get past that then I think it'll be a lot easier but I think you know right now it's it's still so early that the only thing that people see or recognize or or that attract people to crypto in the first place is the financial gain aspect of it and I think that is kind of like the the con and the pro because the pro is that it gets people into crypto but the con is they're not looking cash just the financial aspect of it and I think that is something that we have to overcome and that's why you know I'm making it my mission so really everybody that I you know contact have contact with on a daily basis doesn't matter who they are I'm going to introduce crypto to them whether I have to give it to them or whether you know building a website like crypto city I'm gonna do it and and that's gonna be a lifetime project for me well if you're handing so out I can always give you my address yeah I mean you know that just just you know touch base with Ricky and anybody else that wants to you know get some hyper snake I'll be more than happy to you know set that up for you the only thing you need to do is you do you need to download the hyper snake wallet from the site from crypto – city calm and once you do that you know send me the address and I'll send you some coins and that was for anybody in the room if you want if you would want to give a layperson advice from how to get into hyper snake which would you tell them download the wallet there's video tutorials there's you know a whole education system or section on crypto city that is specifically geared to educate people about crypto and the thing is you know we'll get everybody started on it you know it's as far as as far as looking at from a financial aspect one thing we always want to try to do is educate people in terms of look beyond the money aspect of it look at what you could do as a participant in how you can help to evolve that infrastructure going forward and how it's gonna affect you in your personal life what can you do with it with your local community and globally and and the great part about it is once you download a wallet if you decide to accept a hyper stake for your goods and services and anybody could do that you know if you have a special set of skills if you do consulting if you do arts and crafts you can say hey instead of a u.s. dollars send me hyper steak instead and that actually helps you to bring up an interesting topic and they're gonna say hey what's hyper steak and they you know and it basically helps you to introduce crypto where you're not forcing anything down their throat but you're bringing up something which they'll find interesting but the first thing you're doing is educating them about crypto rather than giving it to them as a financial vehicle yes indeed and I think it's quite noble that you seek to is essentially introduce people to the ecosystem of crypto currencies give them a little bit to start out but primarily as a means of enabling them to be informed and to see the potential directly firsthand without becoming a speculators so I do it memory and and if they hold the coins in the wallet and become a participant in the network they actually get rewarded for securing the network or having their wallet online so it becomes almost like you know there's a saying you know you become your own bank well in return for participating the network you also get rewarded directly to your wallet over a period of time and that continues to compound as well so so it's almost like you know you is doing the mining just without the cost that is involved and the more points that you have you know as you continue to you know increase your the amount of coins that you have the better that you know the better that it becomes for you as a participant but the really nice thing is that if you wanted to use strategy to increase because obviously there's going to be people that have more resources than you you know for example somebody that has a million coins versus somebody as you know ten thousand one hundred thousand coins obviously someone with a million coins is going to be able to use different strategies to try to maximize their returns within that network you know because it's almost like a competition every week anybody that holds a coin automatically qualifies to participate the win rewards and that's really the nice thing about it is it's it's incentivized for people to participate and just for being a participant you're you're not required to really have like a huge outlay to be able to get rewards in the term but it does require some you know for you to be able to learn about the network learn about the system and how it works for you to benefit from it and I think that's a really important aspect of that so basically it's just getting people involved that's really the first thing and it's over time that will continue to evolve and that's the other reason why we've you know are basically developing the governance system because it enables every wallet holder to become a participant to have a say in which direction the project goes or if they wanted to say hey you know I want to do conference or you know and they want to change certain aspects of network or aspects of the protocol anybody could do that they would simply submit it along with their stake in and I think that's really the exciting part of it because right now it's still an experiment but if everybody has a part in that experiment and if there's a consensus on the network that says hey this particular individual has a great idea let's do it and then we do then it becomes a very interesting ongoing evolution of the network Thank You tanta now Damian any further questions that you would like to ask the panel if I may I would like to give my brief on that as well I'll keep it short okay certainly cause you asked everybody so just a couple of points so one there's kind of this fallacy of money we have a understanding of money because it has been traditionally state managed and if you want to learn more about this I really recommend the book debt five thousand years by Graber David Graeber we had the idea of money as something neutral something that is kind of is it's just this universal thing that we deal with and we evaluate everything else in terms of money it's kind of our feedback loop that allows us to learn how to act better how to behave better because we measure it in money but really if you if you really want to think about this in a more that's a nuanced way you should think about it as targeted something targeted thank you and if you don't know what the currency itself is targeted for then somebody else does and they are the beneficiary and you're a sucker so right now the problem is that it's managed by state states do have their own interests in mind through inflation the average citizen loses their value of the currency that they do hold and so the whole system is set up targeted towards transferring value from remember so I'm sure most of you are familiar with libertarian and Austrian economics and so that that is a base understanding now currencies should always have a kind of goal in mind what are you trying to achieve is this something that achieves something specific for a community is it something you want for the community to grow as well with does it achieve something where it may not even be financial I can give an example of a community currency for example that it was non financial nature but had incredible employees let me interrupt you I'm seeing a duality here you're talking about Austrian economics which is basically a very organic way of doing Kaname a very bottom-up approach but at the same time you're talking about a goal that the currency has so yes that's the dollar but what's the what's the problem here well if if you're designing a currency with a specific goal that meal and you're trying to control what's going to happen right well it depends with us the designing and who accepts it right I mean if you're talking about a government where there expect by force like asking you or actually requiring you to use it to pay your taxes and to accept it as niko tender then you don't have a choice about using it I mean you do have you can try to avoid using money but but it's really the heart to do that targeted currencies and community currencies are a subject that has been growing in interest over the past years where basically a community which can be defined any which way and usually the local community I can do local local council or a local even citizen effort or a club that decides to try to instantiate the values they hold in a specific symbolic framework which can be a digital okay a digital or physical object or a combination of those two to achieve the effort like to achieve a a to achieve value the build I met dynamics inside that system and maybe for it to grow so there is the Bristol pound there is local monies in in Germany and other countries etc but I don't when you want to get bogged down in this so there is definitely the way to target currencies and just want to make the point go ahead I do have a question another question on the whole proof of state thing I mean if if you look at trying to encourage people to participate by giving them an interest on their holdings on the other hand if you have such a currency in place as a global currency that would be used let's say in a hypothetical world where crypto has overtaken fiat and we are working with such a system don't we get the problem that people become very adverse to spending and essentially hog money because that means that make it more instead of pumping you back into the economy I'm not going to argue that point because it's not a point I'm making I'm just explaining to you how currencies can work there are not monies or that can pull through the function of money what you're talking about is basically the problem of deflation which is a a non-problem I mean it's it's made to be a devil in Keynesian economics because it seems to make the money not flow but this is exactly the problem that community currencies solve because they instantiate local economies that actually transfer value between participants in a network that exists based on existing relationships so existing business ties in a local economy which today in the globalized world can actually be a community that doesn't even have to be locally arranged but rather is arranged about any specific thing like I know a sharing community of information or it can be a social whatever but I just want to make the last point that if we want to transition to a truly cryptocurrency based economy and we wanted to be used virtually everywhere what we need to do is we need to make it as easy to use as possible even to the point where people who use it are not even aware that they're using a cryptocurrency so the problem that I have with a lot of the crypto community is that they have these utopian visions where everybody has their wallet on their on their phone and I was like 10 different wallets for 10 different currencies and this Technol can and to the point this techno techno utopian you need to make simple applications that kind of obscure the technical workings behind it and are just easy to use where you it's as easy to use as sending an email that's one right please are you with that I completely agree with that one of the things that I'm thinking about with cryptocurrency we need some sort of application or some sort of system that basically Apple Feist cryptocurrency it made it needs to become idiot-proof you know yes we'll see who achieves that but it's not something we can really make a point about then just the thing I want to finish it with is that we need to build strong local economies around existing communities communities that have shared values that are trying to achieve certain goals and then how we achieve the universe application of cryptocurrencies is making them easily translatable or switchable between those different community based currencies that's what will actually get us going there because these global approaches they don't have existing communities they don't have an ability to actually form a community that has form a governance mechanism for achieving the goals of trying to achieve and so it isn't in actually a community I even think that Bitcoin itself is not a community because it doesn't have formal ways of influencing the network to it to change governance but anyways that's all I wanted to say and I think you want to take some questions from the audience now all right yes so these are certainly important discussions to have and I did want to fit in some audience questions and Dameon feel free to also weigh in on them so Lucas team Aveo writes in an interview on London real Andreas Antonopoulos mentioned that one of the secondary effects of blockchain technology is that it can allow for ownership of capital without personhood for instance machines as vendors operators and business owners and of course this relates to the concept of a decentralized autonomous organization that doesn't have to have management doesn't have to have people continually tweaking its policies and can have say self executing contracts so Lucas asks how do you think this will affect our understanding of artificial intelligence even if it is narrow AI would anyone like to weigh in on that yeah I mean that's a really interesting topic because this is only just the beginning I mean we're not even it's it's insane you know just me thinking about the future is that's where the Internet of Things come into play and that's where the hyper chain is going to be an interesting interesting topic because machine the machine and and totally autonomous transactions you know for example your refrigerator being able order food you know when it runs out or taxis you know paying for another services lots of lots of you know venues could be had in in this space and and as far as going forward in the future it's kind of like we're gonna be looking at like a economy of choice everything is going to be decentralized it's no longer a particular currency so basically it everything will revolve around the particular individual of what they want to participate in but in terms of the you know of machine the machine I think that we're going to see an increase of that like for the blockchain technology or even other you know Kryptos even with the hyper chain for example you'll be able to monitor your health you know through the system you'll be able to let's say monitor your house you know you're keeping your information and in terms of your health records anything is possible and that's really the nice thing about you know from games videos anything you can really think of all right I'd like the way there what's away in on this specifically regard our understanding of AI what you seen lately is that AI is each year escapable for many more and more tasks that humans are also capable to deal with of course its first started with AI beating people's yes and eventually beating humans at at the game of Go which is one of the most complex world games in existence and what I've noticed last year is that applications of AI are targeted to become a bit more human such as using AI to control the movements of robot in order to make them move more human-like and I think that the same concept can also be found in the application of lie within locked air technology and especially when it comes to ownership of capital and such that AI will become significant players of those markets and that's from the outside the distinguished have them say this the difference between AI and artificial intelligence and normal humans the difference will not be that big anymore so there the division between those two will sort of become a gray area so I think that this will change our understanding of AI that there are notes to be considered just machines or just algorithms anymore but it's just as humans can be large players of markets and even on the economic market Thank You Lourdes now Damien what are your thoughts yes well I sadly have to leave you about now and as we see technologies evolve we also see cryptocurrency rolling with them such as No geez in computer science and related issues and well basically it's some very exciting time to be alive if you trace and what used to be and I would say I'm very thankful for your insights I'm looking forward to seeing the next thing on crypto emerge I'm very I've learned a lot today I'm interested about what's gonna happen with half graph and how a chain I will definitely same and I hope you have a good final part of the debate after this all right Thank You Damian and we appreciated having you as well it is unfortunate that you have to leave early but I will take it from here and we will continue with audience questions Morris before we move on to the next question do you have any thoughts about how a I might be connected to future applications of blockchain technology or agent centric computing or any successors to blockchain technology sure I actually think that the notion of AI becoming an agent of its own is a delusion I think that the current understanding of AI ask this kind of a live being is something that we where we apply the concept of god or of an individual to a technology that cannot sustain itself outside of a context of human technology and us keeping that stuff alive I think it's also under based on understanding a faulty understanding of how intelligence actually works because if you look at how intelligence works and how the debate has been progressing is that the idea of go fight or good old-fashioned AI as the idea where you build a model then we execute an action and then you see what happens that's kind of the idea of AI I that some most people use is wrong and is a faulty understanding of intelligence the actual way that intelligence works is as an embodied process and Rodney Brooks act in the 70s talked about this already like back then and I think it should have worked its way by now through the artificial intelligence community or even the transhumanist community and understanding that intelligence works by subsuming individual modules that do very specific tasks into a hierarchy where feedback loops between the individual modules make it work together and where the sensing and response happens at very short timescales through the networking of these different architectural at different models and one more context that a kind of gives gives a better understanding of this is that the AI model that we use today or most of us use today is based on this idea of absolute truth or of a an absolute view on data if you understand where actually I currently is coming from and where the machine learning revolution that we're seeing is coming from its from the client-server based model of the Internet where we've been able to amass lots and lots of data on servers that can then be mined and analyzed and kind of learned from build up models and then analyze other things that seem to be like that that's where our current understanding of AI comes from but Ron's BA yes good that is not certainly through the current leading-edge applications of AI are not based on just artificial intelligence in that or let me just call my name's Ian ants they are not just friends on specific datasets that you feed into them and train them to before or to mimic the same results that the data the data says ought to train them to produce algorithms that they are there they can learn by themselves they don't need training data I understand that this is something this is the development that's happening I'm immortal I'm more talking about and it's a good point you're making a point I mean it's it's I'm more talking about that AI the kernel is standing at least as far as I understand it is coming from this assumption this kind of rationalistic assumption that is there is an absolute truth or an absolute view on reality and that that can be modeled and kind of learn from and then to kind of take in to have this compounding effect of intelligence feeding on itself to ever become ever smarter and it's kind of a singularity idea that is so popular among people like you like myself because it gives us this thing to look forward to but I think it comes from the wrong notion of how intelligence works and if you actually look towards nature and how intelligence works in nature it's an embodied process it's a process that takes a bunch of individual modules like in a in a body there's no CEO cell there's no cell that kind of learns the model then tells all the other cells how to do things it's a sum sumption architecture that uses individual Co hearing unit of agency at lower levels to build up ever higher levels of agency on top and so that's how it's happening with AI right now as well what we're doing right now is we are building AI as a cognitive extension of our own minds and also of our collective minds to have faster and faster feedback loops to assist us in navigating reality but they will not become I don't think at least that they will become this separate thing that can sustain itself outside of us at least not until very far into the future and the latest I'm pretty convinced actually that we'll see something like that happen and I'm not specifically talking about full realization of general artificial intelligence but certainly some form of actual human-like intelligence to be to emerge in the next two to five years maximum I'm pretty convinced we based on every development that I've seen in the past few years because obviously every AI researcher has also to say acknowledged the problems with AI itself trying to mimic intelligence without it actually being a form of intelligence so they're they're doing their best Alden dollars if that's the case this is it $1,000 $1,000 okay okay I think if you my theory matter is no problem well like that I think yes as far as AI a lot of the current technology that we have mean it's still a long ways before you know we have completely autonomous AI because currently a lot of the technologies out there a lot of things out there lack sensors and I think as more sensors continue to be developed and more is added on to machines then you have machines that are that become aware once we get to that point then more information is shared between those machines and obviously that will continue to grow in functionality just like for example you have an ant by you know a single ant doesn't really do anything particularly interesting but once you have a whole army of the answer a colony advance they begin to do they're able to execute complex operations and I think you know at this stage it's kind of like we're at the single ant stage I think over time we'll continue to see the you know complex and operation continue to to multiply yes go ahead that is it lettuce abyss how I will see the emergence of the first actually through the trillions intelligence AI to to emerge and then I'm specifically talking about the whole concept of emergence where a lot of small entities which are not that intelligent on their own or that all have own simplistic tasks when they work together following certain rules then the behavior that emerges from that system as a whole is a lot more intelligent some of all those parts apart and I think the same concept can also be applied to artificial intelligence and that is why I find it to be I personally expect some application of death to to be developed within the next two to five years yes this is indeed quite an interesting discussion and I would recommend for all of the panelists as well as all of those watching the discussion to explore the u.s. transhumanists Parties discussion panel on artificial intelligence which took place in January of 2017 as well as the subsequent panel on AI and automation at Freedom Fest in Las Vegas in July of 2017 because a lot of these issues were explored in those panels as well including the question of artificial general intelligence and could there be an AI that transcends domain-specific tasks that can jump across domains and learn multiple kinds of skills like driving a car and playing chess and discussing philosophy with you in a manner that appears to be plausible like you were conversing about it amongst yourselves so this is definitely a fascinating subject and one that we could certainly discuss for hours longer I wanted to address a few other questions while we have time in the panel lilium Carlson asks do you think the implementation of a crypto ubi a universal basic income is possible or would be efficient and I think this is an important question to address because the u.s. transhumanist party does support a universal unconditional basic income as part of its platform and one of the promises that crypto currencies pose is that this ubi does not need to be governmental in nature it could be agreed upon by a sufficiently large unity that people who participate within it or perhaps as many people as possible should have some sort of income floor to facilitate a decent standard of living how feasible do you think that is in the nearer term and if it is feasible what would be the best way to achieve it that's actually a very interesting topic of mine not in particular not specifically towards some basic income but I always tend to think of things in terms of resource where do those resources come from because you have to have it has to come from somewhere to begin with and I think that's one of the the issues that a lot of people don't really tackle to start with when they say basic income so I I'd rather think of it rather than basic income to think of it as a resource based interesting so how how would that differ in terms of the basis for deriving the resource income and allocating it to people um well I I think the the important part is it's really just getting over that mental hump to start with just for people to wrap their head around you know a resource-based economy where let's say for example no income is needed to start with let's say you like food production right currently we have to go a store we have to exchange a form of income or you know currency for another currency which is food what if all of that was eliminated what if everything the entire economy was based on what resources were actually available and how do people have access to those resources whether it's books whether it's vehicles weather so you really have to change the whole concept of exchanging one currency for another so I mean it's just like a different concept that that is really hard for people to wrap their head around and I think you know I think a lot of the problems that we face today is really a problem with the way that we think in terms of of is this possible is this feasible well the technology exists today but the problem is or are we as a society willing to go forward and create this type of economy and I think that is one of the major stopping points of of realizing this you know this type of future because realistically if you have resources out there and if no one was specifically just saying hey I want to make a lot of money you know I'm going to acquire all these resources well what if that wasn't a problem anymore and instead of people trying to hoard resources you have a governance system that is non-biased let's say that is rule-based machine based where there is no individual that decides to say hey this particular group has access to this or that particular group has access to that where you have an economy were as a whole everybody works together in terms of assessing you know how much resources do we have and how this could be applied and a lot of the the mechanism in terms of production is done through machines – this is interesting this is interesting because ultimately the reason for money the reason for any sort of allocation of resources to begin with is that sources are scarce at least many of them are if they are not scarce for instance breathable air on planet earth there is no need for a system of currency to decide who gets what or any other sort of governance mechanism people can just breathe for free likewise in a lot of places drinking water is like that email is like that now so it doesn't have to be a raw resource of nature potentially technology can advance to the point where something is sufficiently inexpensive to produce that it could be made available without requiring a monetary payment a lot of information on the internet is like that even art and music in digital format is often given away for free this panel recording is given away for free nobody has to pay money in order to listen to it so it seems to me that the technological capabilities and the material resources that support a particular good or service are ultimately what determine how readily it can be allocated the question is do we have systems in place monetary systems or otherwise that can then allocate those goods or services without introducing additional frictions or incentive problems of their own so I'll open it up to Moritz and Lawrence to discuss this further and give any of their thoughts about universal basic income whether crypto currencies or other related technologies can be used to facilitate it well I can add a bit more I don't I'm not quite sure if that will involve cryptocurrencies but regarding basic income as a whole I think that we should start at other points where we're talking about not basic income but let's say a basic provision of food for everyone in the world like solving the actual problem of hunger I think that is one of the things that can actually be accomplished in a relatively short time span for example let's see let's let's look what about to how food is put is grown currently you have farmers you have machines a lot of all those things have already been automated but not everything and if you also look at 3d printers there are 3d printers that are basically able to replicate themselves they can print parts that they are comprised of the only thing that's lacking is a robot that is able to assemble all those parts together if such a robot is also able to be 3d printed then you have a fully self-replicating system in place if you extend that to also have the capabilities to produce relative a small or large it doesn't really matter because of self-replicating if you have self-replicating harvesting machines then you can fully automate the process of harvesting so I see is pretty viable in their future to have the entire food production sector to be fully automated and I think that will be one of the biggest steps towards basic a universal basic income Thank You Lawrence now Moritz do you have any thoughts to add to this particular conversation I do so for one I'm not a believer in the universal basic income for the simple reason that I find it to be a dangerous game in the sense that it takes skin in the game away from the lowest level and or from the highest or from the from the level where the agency is at and and kind of brings gives the government or whatever other system this provides this universal basic income a level of control over the people who receive it that I wouldn't want anybody to have if you think about where if everybody gets food from a single source or from a specific source then they're beholden to that source on whatever at once if it takes away that food that income again and so I would rather have a decentralized and actual distributed provisioning of food in the way or income in the way that people actually exchange value for value and that's been going on forever we just need to find better ways to actually sustain everybody and have people basically adopt better governance systems better technology and better social better culture basically to be able to do that not have children when it's that's actually not a good idea to do so half children one at this so there are so many other considerations here than just oh we have resources and we just need to distribute them better to take into account now if you were to actually try to implement something like this I would recommend trying to do it on a small scale and I've been seeing it grow and then if you're able to do that great for you go ahead do it but I'm not sure it would be great to introduce it on a large scale especially since it hasn't been proven to work without fault it's not small scales before and has merited some interesting results but it hasn't been clear-cut either way that being said at the current moment we already have basic income it's just split across different services at least in the US you have food stamps you have Social Security you have many different systems that are providing a sort of basic income unfortunately the bureaucratic cost of that is so high that the large part of the money is not actually going towards the people who are requesting and requiring it but rather to the bureaucracy that is making it work so I would be in favor of kind of streamlining that I'm not sure it would look like a universal basic income basically what we need is better accounting at all levels accounting for how value flows throughout our system and that can only be achieved by one making people better educated better able to assess value both the one that they receive and the one that they give to others and to act better in a sense and we need to be very mindful of whose skin is in the game whenever something like this gets instituted and that it should not be taking away from the lowest levels so I'm sure that most of you are familiar with Telep and that if you have a a central distribution of anything when that system fails you have huge catastrophe and so I would rather see every single small system fail before it gets large rather than like a vaca Destry on catastrophe on the hands that we can't resolve in a good way so that's that's my thoughts I just wanted to add that I did I just proposed or the scenario if you wanna call it that wasn't necessarily designed to be a centralized system it's good just as well be a centralized decentralized system because obviously that's less far less like far less prone to fail from my understanding the way that you described it and maybe even with some modifications it wouldn't work in the sense that you were saying that it's a self-replicating system but but you need to have the resources to build those robots out of it's not like you're not building robots out of robots you're building robots out of robots plus the raw materials that are required to make additional robots and so that flow of resource has to also be generated and sustained over time and for that you need humans to make it flow towards those ends like there's a whole lot of other infrastructure that is being left out in kind of what you're doing is you're combining just the idea of separate decaying robots and then trying to apply it everywhere but it doesn't work that you neither need to have a much more sophisticated understanding of how value and resources flow through our entire ecology of interrelated parts and the marginal incentives that are necessary to axis tain an entire infrastructure for the individual agents in the system to actually do the work which is necessary to sustain it I'm fully aware that there are a lot of a lot of subproblems also need to be tackled and and salty for something like that can be remotely viable I was just talking about what I thought bit be effusive or no basic income would be something in the future that this would be one of the easiest way to get to some such a point but I'm more than aware that there are at least at least fifty other problems that need to be solved either of the hundreds possible right I do remember one more thing I wanted to add which is that there is one system that I'm pretty confident has some merit that is Johann migrants tax seems I'm not sure whether you've heard of it he actually wrote for I think was the Institute of exponential technologies or something like that I'm sure you've heard of that before they they are pretty prolific online it's called tax seems in the sense it's a combination of taxation and memes and what it's about is basically having pathways of value transfer in an economy be kind of taxed and every transaction through basically like a replicating algorithm that says okay for this transaction a small part of it is going towards this kind of pool that gets distributed to all of the people or to the people who require it so it's a kind of decentralized non central system of Taxation where there's no force behind it but rather opt in for businesses or other kind of players to say okay I want to be a part of the system I will support the system and so it's based on marginal incentives for people to basically gain status from doing so and that's I think what's what is what has some viable what has some merit I think that's a very interesting cost concerns and doesn't that pick of a proponent of Texas in general but if anything that sounds like better concepts and centrally regulated form of taxation as it currently stands yes and this again would be quite a fascinating discussion to continue I am even thinking at some point of hosting a u.s. transhumanist party discussion panel on universal basic income I think some of the cautions you expressed Moritz are appropriate I recall during the late Roman Empire in order to query favor with the urban populace in Italy Roman emperors and various generals would engage in the policy of essentially bread and circuses giving away free food to the masses and treating them to lavish spectacles in exchange for support essentially but that could only last for as long as the resource base was there outside of Italy to produce that food ship it to Rome and distribute it there and once the Roman Empire began having problems because it was overextended and being chipped away at its edges the ability to provide that food became less reliable the masses rioted over through a succession of emperors eventually the whole system collapsed and people fled and mass from the cities back to a more agricultural feudal kind of lifestyle and certainly we wouldn't want to have these kinds of failure points on the other hand if it can be done in a decentralized fashion without putting any entity in an extremely powerful position to be the arbiter of the fates of the recipients I think that would be promising now in terms of how it is being implemented right now it is not through a top-down scheme there are various pilot projects by smaller national governments for instance in Finland or certain localities provincial governments in other countries I believe some Canadian jurisdictions are trying it Y Combinator in the Bay Area is trying a small-scale UVI experiment I think it's going to have several thousand recipients so probably de-facto we're going to have multiple pilot projects each with a fairly small reach but there would be data from them and an improved understanding derived from essentially the results so with regard to our panel it was interesting because I thought we would have plenty to discuss over the course of two hours and it feels to me that we are kind of only beginning to scratch the surface of some of these issues but nonetheless I recognize that we are past the two-hour mark so I wanted to give each of you the option to offer closing statements and those closing statements can relate to anything that has been said thus far or any of the questions or comments that you see in the YouTube chat and hopefully again this is not the end of the discussion this is just the beginning and in other venues and other ways these conversations can continue so Lawrence let's hear your closing statement well I think the fact that as you mentioned that we've probably barely scratched the surface during this two-hour talk perfectly this reflects the potential death blockchain technology has I mean two hours our yeah it's just not enough time to to have decent discussion on the whole topic of bloodshed and technology because it's just so so big so yeah do I have any for closing remarks on the parts I don't I don't think so I would suggest that we follow up with another panel discussion and within the comment time so perhaps narrow our discussion down to a specific sub problem within block 10 technology or one specific technology that we want to discuss about because blockchain as a whole is just yeah sometimes a big a bit too big of topic to tackle just at once yes and I would certainly be open to another panel if we can perhaps after this conversation formulate some potential areas of focus and invite some other panelists to to participate at a later date that would be great so Chantal what are your closing remarks well it's I'm very excited about going forward in terms of because currently we live in a centralized economy or centralized Authority and going forward in the future what we're seeing or seeing right now at least in the crypto space is a lot of things are being decentralized and that's very exciting because it's going to become a economy of choice rather than being pigeon-holed into a single economy that you have to participated and I think that's very exciting and I think you know to decentralize everything and you know the fit one of the things that I've been working on in the past is I spent two years working on food production in a room where I was growing fish fruits vegetables in house for two years doing research and development so decentralizing food production in the future is definitely something that that needs to be looked into as well and it is very possible and very efficient and I think you know being able to do that plus the the crypto that opens up a lot of doors for people and hopefully we see a lot more people getting involved absolutely I think these technologies would benefit greatly from more widespread participation one of the themes that I have observed throughout this conversation is the need for a community of adopters and users of any technology because ultimately currency as a medium of exchange requires people to use it as would any other functionalities for instance with regard to smart contracts you need people to engage in smart contracts you need people as participants in any economic transaction so how to build communities around these technologies and how to ensure that the best technologies are going to be the ones that have the strongest communities behind them but will certainly be important challenges for the future so Moritz what are your closing remarks for this parable all right so basically I was just like to recommend to everybody who was interested in the topics and subjects that I've breached to go to my Facebook page you can add me happy to have more conversation I also just recently actually yesterday night uploaded a talk that I gave at a meet-up on exactly that kind of subject it was titled a short history of computing and its next paradigm agent centric architectures and in it I go more into how these technologies actually work what they can achieve etc and yeah I think that's basically it if you want to get in touch with me also to have more conversation to go to my own web search more it's being calm and please check out the idea of tech seems you can google it and fortunately I'm unable to post links into the chat on YouTube so you have to do it yourself and yeah I'm available for more questions more conversation and do hope this gets repeated sometime soon excellent thank you very much and I am going to work to create an archived version of the chat so that it will also be accessible after the panel this recording will remain available on the youtube link and furthermore it will be posted to the u.s. transhumanist party website thank you to all three of you Shanta lawrence and Moritz for sharing your insights today also thank you to Damian Ziff kovitch who unfortunately could not stay with us for the conclusion of the panel but nonetheless whose participation we have appreciated I think the breadth of comments offered today are indicative of the extent to which blockchain technologies and their successors are affecting economies financial transactions everyday life and stand to do so increasingly in the near future and as we continue to monitor this area we will on the one hand focus on specific sub topics of conversation on the other hand we should keep a lookout for emerging developments that may surprise us and may revolutionize this field even further so with that thank you very much to our panelists thank you very much to our audience I hope you all have a good day and we look forward to further discussions

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