Crypto's not dead · Bobby Cho, DRW Trading



markets speculation and risk this is the chaplet traders podcast hosted by Erin Fifield hey what's up everyone welcome to episode 167 of chat with traders podcast featuring Bobby Chou say Bobby first appeared on the podcast in August last year some of you may recall that episode he's the global head of trading at Cumberland which is the crypto arm of Chicago trading firm drw and it's one of the largest liquidity providers in the crypto space I thought it would be fitting to check in with Bobby again because of the events which have unfolded in crypto currency markets over the past twelve months so our chat actually begins with some of the highlights from the recent Cumberland summit which was an industry event for insiders then we discussed Cumberlands international expansion and from there we get into Bitcoin sudden rise and decline from 20k whether or not crypto markets have matured decentralized exchanges kryptos value and use cases institutional involvement and the bigger picture as we move forward if I happen to miss any topics that some of you diehard crypto fanatics did want to hear about sorry please don't be too mad I would suggest though going back to episode 139 our first podcast because we spoke about other topics then anyway without any further delay let's get into it here is my second conversation with the man Bobby Cho I mean I was looking we might as well just get started now I guess I mean I was looking at when we actually did the interview last time and it was August last year I believe is when we actually spoke and recorded it I think came out a little bit later but I was looking back at the price of Bitcoin then $4,000 so there's certainly been a lot happening since so we've got a lot to get into but before that I just wanted to ask you a little bit about the gambling summit I saw some photos that you were posting on Twitter like a bit of fun hell's up yeah it was great so obviously we we have a number of counterparties you know all over the globe and along with counterparties we have a number of service riders that we deal with you know exchanges and infrastructure players as well and so we said well man why don't we put on an event where our you know let's call it our network is able to network with one another right and and really the genesis of it came about where we saw what some of the larger firms were doing with their you know I did a customer base of the client base or counterparty base such as like you know the Salesforce dream summit or things like that and so we just basically said hey let's open up kind of our network to to themselves so that they can build synergies and really see that you know what we're trying to do here is trying to grow the industry and and it was not open any media I think people had people really enjoyed kind of the conversations that happened that yeah it was that in Singapore or was that in cha oh sorry in Chicago know that that was Singapore yeah so look I think part of it was we tried the couple within because it's not very easy to get to Singapore well for you it is for most people undecided it's not that easy so we said well let's couple this with some of the conferences and events that were happening Singapore and so we were we were very surprised at the one the RSVP rate of people coming we had thought you know hey you know so big ask but I think when a few pieces came together I think everybody felt like you it'd be worthwhile time yeah suddenly looked is like you had the the Kannada who so if the crypto world there noticed the the Winklevoss twins the the by nan sky was there and obviously many others so yeah no that's very cool man what was the general sentiment like in the room like general sentiment on the actual crypto space and where we're headed from here you know since everybody's so tied into the crypto space there you know obviously people are very bullish on the outlook of the industry as a whole we had people from both kind of the crypto asset side along with the BA teen technology side and so it's good to kind of get both those feelings and it seems like on the blockchain technology side that it seems like products are now being delivered and being tested against which is which is nice on the crypto side you know everybody acknowledges that we are in a different environment and then we were and q4q one this year but at the same time I think and I'll go into this kind of much ad is that if it helped a lot of these companies build infrastructure around what they were doing because I think if the pace at which the industry was evolving or prices were the way they were in q41 it would have been much much harder for those companies to build kind of scalable solutions for their for the customers so when you sank companies here like what sort of companies are you referring to so so the demographic of the people that were there were obviously you name the right exchange operators you you had funds which you know are typical counterparties you had different protocols or I guess you can loosely call them you know crypto projects that we wanted to bring together with investors okay and as you had you know such a great group of people in that room all together I mean what was some of the highlights of that for you was there anything which was said which was kind of surprising for you or or shocking in some ways like was there any sort of notable topics that were discussed not I mean it was basically we had created an agenda for people but at the same time you know there wasn't anything you know let's say recorded or anything like that but it was kind of everything that was going on in the industry at the time you know one of the things that we have mentioned was like you know some of the panels and topics were like mining versus taking and just kind of the the relevant things that were happening in ministry and and also you know we it was kind of like a fine balance of basically hey well we want people to be feel like they're in an open environment and that they can be transparent with this with this network and and we obviously wanted to respect that privacy aspect of it as well and and maybe cinema sort of question fries day little differently was there anything which which kind of got you excited was there any talk about upcoming developments in the space it wasn't discussed there I'll say but what we did see was at you know you think that the crypto industry is you know fairly small and compared to other asset classes and then I agree to agree with that but it was really interesting to see the dialogues and the connections that were happening between different companies from Asia versus the US gathering information just how things are being done in different parts of the world and I think getting that cohesion amongst the the network was was something that that for me that's obably the greatest output that we could've done from that event hmm you know that's cool man so are you guys doing this each year or what's the deal I think that's that's the idea but we we haven't put anything down on paper yet but the hope is that we'll kind of see how the year develops and and and maybe that will become part of it okay so you said that was in Singapore and I I'm pretty sure you guys have opened an office in Singapore since we last spoke is that correct yes that's right so I want to say it was right around October or November of last year that we had officially opened Cumberland in Singapore and that was kind of a a good natural step for us mainly because drw already had a presence and so infrastructure has already set up and things like that okay and do you have an office anywhere else besides Chicago and Singapore for Cumberland so you know we are we do have different locations all around the globe which kind of helps one do our business 24/7 which I'll go into a little bit but so we're headquartered here in Chicago we have offices in London and in Singapore and about three months ago we launched our Tokyo office and then more recently we launched Seoul South Korea or Japan and Korea office are more of in the discovery more mode if anything and just trying to figure out kind of the label and what's going on there and and how we could mmm you know build a business here so where are you spending most if you tell them now it is in Chicago you know everything that I do kind of internally although I do manage the trading desk and kind of our operations folks and the broader business you know my main focus is making sure that the company as a whole is operating efficiently and to the caliber that that we hold ourselves to right and what's the idea of having all these various offices in different locations around the globe sure that's a good question so I'll just say that Singapore in London were kind of natural hubs of whether you want to call it financial activity or you know crypto asset activity that was just natural to us and that helps us provide markets to our counterparties on a 24/7 basis right because um you know when Chicago leaves for the day Singapore gets into the office and you know London then gets in and then we pick up the book from London the reason why Tokyo and Seoul were looking into were mainly because of some of the jury specific jurisdictional you know regulatory environments that crypto lives in in in those regions and so it we realized very quickly that was hard as you know company that's not boots on the ground there to to get involved and in figure out what's going on yeah okay and so we not always a 24/7 operation that's correct so I think it was in q1 of this year that we had launched 24/7 operations and that means everything from providing markets quoting settlement and everything kind of comes along with that that's when we had built out that infrastructure in q1 and and a lot of the things that we do at Cumberland are driven by our counterparty feedback well we had noticed was that people wanted to trade with us well one it was a symptom of the underlying market being you know 24/7 but we realized their counterparty base was also one to trade 24/7 so said how can we get this going in in a manner that we felt comfortable with in terms of you know risk management and in trading and so we got that up in q1 I guess I should we asked you just real quick just to explain actually what Cumberland is because I'm sure there's people who are gonna be listening to this podcast who haven't heard our last conversation and if they haven't they should go back and listen to it that was episode 139 but just so the rest of this you know our conversation here makes sense to everyone can you just give us a real quick recap on on Cumberland and what you actually do there sure so Cumberland is the crypto trading arm of d RW d RW s about a 900 person principal trading firm across multiple asset classes Carmel is no different we are one of the largest principal liquidity providers in the crypto space where we may two-sided markets for different institutions whether you're a fund or or a different entity out there that's looking to get access or liquidity in the crypto asset space ok so lucky just said that your customer base is mainly institutions and sorry I forgot the other title he gave there but oh I just said I just said entities broadly but so it's not not our customer base per se it's more we deal with counterparties Ross oh dear W as a whole we have no investors no shareholders no customers it's everything is on a principal basis yeah have you noticed that the sort of the people who are coming to you who you're dealing with different it's sort of changed over the past year or so I think so I think what we saw especially when we launched Asia in terms of all the number of funds crypto specific funds I think it's upwards about 300 now and that you know evolution really came about you know I want to say the last time that we had chatted last August that's when you know I think there was a lot of interest pouring into space obviously as the price started to ramp up from you know the August pricing that you mentioned 4,000 and you know hitting the peak kind of in December and January people started to create their own funds and and fundraise and so funds are definitely a a profile of counterparties that that we that we make markets for on a daily basis but aside from that well you know we deal with a number of high net worth individuals or family offices you know in a number of traditional funds that have kind of carved out things on the GP side of things to trade the asset class can you just understand a little bit further so when you're talking about making markets for your counterparties you're talking about making markets in like an OTC type away that's correct so traditionally we we had done you know transactions or quoting or making markets to our counterparties via voice or by chat so that was typically done over some sort of communication portal and and that's how we did it and and as I mentioned before in terms of we we really value the feedback that our counterparties give us because that that helps us get better and so two of the developments that we really started to dig into this year was the idea of how people could interact with us in a non voiced non chat way and so we looked at how other traditional markets were doing it or how they've evolved and so we concluded on two things to which you know we're really excited about in terms of presenting them to our categories but one it's it's an API that people are going to be able to see our pricing whether it's on a streaming basis or something like that and the other thing is a platform base or we called a single dealer platform where people are now able to log in and view all of our markets in a more visual standpoint than the API would okay that's really interesting yeah you know again it's it's it's all driven by just what our counterparties are looking for and we really take that to heart because again that that helps us get better yeah I mean it seems like a much more efficient way to do it automatic there's kind of a method for for an array of different counterparties now and I think it actually helps open up the way that people interact with us much more wider than than before and why are these counterparty is dealing with you specifically or you know other desks who do things similar to what you do instead of just interacting with the actual you know various exchanges sure so there is kind of like a there is a trust factor involved with with that and then there's also in efficiency standpoint with it and I'll go into both so on the trust side of things obviously Theo w's been around for greater than 25 years so we leverage a lot of what the air w has done over the past few decades into what we do who on a day-in day-out basis and so in terms of being able to manage risk in terms of be able to provide the markets that we do and and the spreads that we do we wouldn't be able to do with the without the infrastructure of the broader organization and so I think people people come to respect that and they like that feature and then obviously a balance sheet plays a factor into it as well and then the second part is you know in terms of exchanges we work with the number of exchanges but but we are a risk-taking entity and so what I mean by that is that we can provide I think a greater level of liquidity for for certain coins that are out there then then possibly other other exchanges one of the main features of efficiency that that we like dealing with on the OTC side of things our institutions are very mindful of whether it's internal cost of capital or their return on their capital and so when we trade it's on a bilateral basis and settlement half happens after execution so we don't hold anything in advance of any transaction whereas an exchange you need to hold the funds there for the time that comes that you actually want to do a transaction well that tends to not be an efficient way to manage your capital and so you know just the way that we we trade and settle it tends to be a little bit more efficient for for certain funds out there because of whether it's size or just capital efficiency and what markets are you dealing in now I know I'm sorry not what markets what what products I know obviously Bitcoin but yeah yeah I I believe you've you've kind of expanded the products that you're dealing in as well at different coins and that sort of things since we last spoke as well yeah yeah that's right so we trade upwards of about 35 different crypto currencies you know most of the the the top you know coins by market cap and you know other ERC 20 tokens as well and then along with that we also trade you know whether it's cash settled or physically settled features as well so it's not just the number of coins has expanded but kind of also the product set at which crypto assets are traded in yeah how do you feel about the the introduction of Bitcoin futures like is that something which was welcomed by you guys I think so we were there day one on the CME and the in the SIBO launch we've seen those markets continue to grow over time I think you're seeing kind of more volume going into the CM e market I think mainly because if it's it's it's access and reached you to the broader kind of futures market but I think I think it gave an opportunity for those that wanted to participate in the market in terms of whether speculating on price or putting on a position without actually having to hold the underlying or deal with kind of that side of the trade and so I think it's all it's on net positive but at the same time you know I think you know there are there are more and more infrastructure providers out there that are building products that that that may be better in the future but that's kind of where we are today I guess we should we should get into talking about the big run-up towards the end of last year like I said earlier Bitcoin was around about $4,000 when we last spoke August 2017 how was the run up to 20,000 like what was that like for you to be trading and making markets during that time you know along with working in an environment where kind of the the land around you continues to shift whether it's because of different move that are happening on the regulation side of things or infrastructure side of things you know then you then you add on kind of the volatility of the market and so I just say every day was was an adventure for us we got a lot smarter what we're doing it helped make us realize how we can scale better as a business and and also just how we can manage risk better as well and so I think obviously those were very volatile very adventurous times and so I think we're in a much more sustainable kind of pattern in the industry right now as a market mycod that type of environment is that is that a good thing for you or is that put you to the test a little bit I definitely think it puts you to the test I think it tests your your ability to manage risk it tests your ability to provide markets and be accurate on everything that you're doing I mean you know prices were all over the place it makes you become super efficient on how you're managing your coins in cash making sure you're getting you know the return that you'd like on every single dollar that's on exchange or every single dollar that's out the door or every single coin that you're trading it makes you be much more mindful about every part of your business because things are happening so quickly and you need to have a pulse on everything that's going on and and and and it definitely a definite stress test things your own operations internally was there a point during all of this where it sort of clicked that this was all becoming for a bubble like I think very early on we we said that the markets had bubble like characteristics and so I think the broader audience or the community recognized that this was not the velocity with the was not sustainable and so really when you starting to see prices kind of come off in you know in later q1 and and the subsequent months you know I think that actually gave the industry an opportunity to take everything that they had learned from the previous quarters in terms of you know stress testing their operations things like them we're no different and gave them opportunity to actually build scalable solutions for the marketplace and that's where you're seeing a number of different infrastructure product providers come out whether they're new entrants or older entrants whether they're you know building out their current offerings are offering new things so I think that that really helped the industry figure out kind of where they were at and and how things could end up going down the line and when you sort of sense that you know we were entering a bubble or this was becoming very bubble like was there anything which you had to do to kind of prepare for the backside of this move it's a good question I would say that you know we try to approach every single opportunity by just looking at the broader picture not just kind of living in the moment and so you obviously have to from a risk management standpoint understand that things don't always go up into the right forever and so you have to understand that well you need to be mindful of all your open settlements you need to be mindful of all the transactions that you're doing and so so I just say that you know we kind of anticipated that you know pricing could correct and I think I think any any trader out there would have recognized that as well was just you know when was that gonna happen was that gonna happen in 20,000 or is that gonna happen at 40,000 mm-hmm and what about when it did you know turn around on the flip side how was the decline for you I mean was that I presume that was probably interesting times as well did that have any greater impact on your business as opposed to when it was ramping up no I don't think so I think if anything you know what we we are in the market every single day providing two-sided two-sided quotes so whether the market is going up or whether the market is going down we are gonna step in and provide you a quote or quotes and so there it was kind of no different it was just the reverse basically and so even even today where you see kind of pricing trading in a fairly tight range over the last few months you know we're still being very very active and aggressive out there this whole thing where you know bitcoins gone from well depends how far back you want to go but let's just talk about let's just talk about from you know August last year was four thousand dollars everyone thought it was really high then well I shouldn't say everyone there were many people who were who was saying that we saw it go all the way up to twenty thousand and it's come back and it's sort of flown just above that six thousand dollar mark for a while now for someone like yourself who's been active in the crypto market since I think it was around about 2012 you might have been earlier that you and you're very about 13 I'd say right around 13 okay so you been doing this for a while now there's some things you've learned or some things which have been confirmed over and over for you about you know how markets work how markets move and how market participants think I would just say probably the the biggest takeaway that I try to instill kind of everybody on the desk every way that works for Cumberland is is in this market especially because it's still growing and it's still very new and the infrastructure still being built out and still very early never assume anything always do the work that comes down to you know you know the the addresses that you're sending coins to in terms of double-checking that I mean just never assume anything in this market and then make sure to validate kind of everything that you're doing over and over again and I try to kind of beat that into the team every day just because things just change and and you just have to adapt to what's happening around you this episode of chat with traders is brought to you with support from LinkedIn for entrepreneurs business owners and pretty much anyone who is involved in hiring you know very well the right hire can have a great impact on your business in a good way but where do you find the right hire where do you find the right person for the job in the past job boards were likely the go-to but that's a strategy which relies on hoping that the right person will stumble across your job because how often do you actually hang out on job boards so don't leave finding the right person to chance when you can post your job on LinkedIn a place where people go every day to make connections grow their career and discover opportunities it's the best way to get your job in front of people who are qualified and ready for something new in fact 9 out of 10 LinkedIn members have said that they are open to new opportunities discover wire new hire is made every 10 seconds on LinkedIn and get started get over to LinkedIn calm / chat and get $50 off your first job post that's LinkedIn calm / chat to get $50 off your first job post T's and C's apply what do you make of the fact that bitcoins kind of fluctuating around the $6,000 mark like it seems to have almost found a little bit of support there is there anything which you've read into from that not too much III look at kind of like the broader picture of what that provides to the marketplace and I'll just go back to the fact that it allows people to kind of go back and focus on building scalable products and solutions for the marketplace and and and grain and we are kind of in this low vol low volume environment but you know that really provides an opportunity for companies to reassess what they're doing in and to some degree you know there is there is a level of consolidation that's been happening this in this in this environment in this market and so that makes one it makes business plans of a lot of these companies have to be much more bulletproof than they were you know in the run-up of q4 last year right I think even whether it's an ICO or a different protocol that's out there I mean I mean people have gotten smarter over the past year they know the right questions ask so you better believe that the economics behind your token offering the economics behind the token that you're launching needs to be much more soundproof because people have seen the boom and kind of you know if you want to call it the bust of a lot of these projects yeah would you say also the how volatility is decreased over the last sort of little wall that it's possibly a sign that the market has matured a little bit as well yes I think I think that that can be a safe assumption along with the other products that have been launched out there in terms of futures in other products like that allowing people to participate on both sides of of their perspective yeah and what about the altcoin Spice how's that been affected by all of this yeah I mean I think I think you're seeing it in in the numbers a few months ago I kind of looked at one of the articles and said that you know 60% of all icos have have kind of have gone away and and and they're not they're not relevant anymore and so again going back to the whole you know sound business models they need to be tougher today than they were a year ago you know I think you know the old coin market volumes have definitely dried up things have become very very illiquid even more liquid than some of the other crypto is out there and and there's been sort of this whether you want to call like flight to quality or flight to safety but it's kind of gone going back to Bitcoin a little bit the interesting dynamic kind that we've seen out of Asia is that you know more than 10% of the transactions that we do during Asia hours are actually a theory based more so than the u.s. hours and so that was an interesting dynamic for us mainly because it gave us an idea of kind of what our agent the folks that are trading with us in Asia are are doing and transacting in and excited about and involved with now I guess just taking a little step back you know that run up to 20,000 I don't know maybe you can share your thoughts on this but I think you know if we were just to make a general assumption it was it was a lot of it was driven or fuelled by people thinking that Bitcoin and some of the other coins could possibly become widely accepted as a possibly a form of currency you know is it safe to say that the majority of people no longer believe that this is still the case I actually want to say that the run-up in q4 and q1 or kind of the broader tail end of last year was was driven mostly by retail and I think most would would agree with that and I think you actually saw a number of places you know different jurisdictions different regions where being able to trade crypto became more accessible and so that's why you had you know premiums on various different exchanges that were maybe servicing you know people in Japan or servicing people in Korea or in India or different places like that so you you basically had pockets of retail investors and traders that now were accessing a market that kind of you know they were able to kind of play off of the market side of things but also there's this technology aspect to a lot of these coins that they can express their views on and so I think I think that was kind of a big catalyst to the run-up I still think the whole use case aspect of whether it's Bitcoin or other crypto technologies out there it still lives today and still being built on and iterated on but I think a lot of that was kind of trumped by just the the price action that you saw day to day hmm yeah but I mean why was retail buying this up I mean what was their motivation for buying into this was it just to try and get try and get rich try and get a Lamborghini you know III don't know the exact answer but I can look back at history a little bit in terms of you know brief history you know the run-up for Bitcoin going into you know let's call it a thousand dollars or 1500 a few years back I mean a lot of that was driven by China well why was that driven by China was because it gave them an outlet to or an access for for for loosening capital controls and so people realize that there was this vehicle or this asset that they can get into and they can then go ahead and and send funds all around the world however they like and so I would actually look at the regions during the run-up of q4 that they had very similar profiles of just capital controls in place and and how how they were able to access those markets that they couldn't before yeah okay so I guess you know if we got into this a little more what I'm sort of trying to get out here is where's the value in Bitcoin like where do you see the value in it now you know I know a lot of people are asking this I posted in the the chat with traders Facebook group and mention that I was going to be having you back on in this question sort of came up a few times you know what is the real purpose is a lot of as a question a lot of people are asking like what purpose does crypto serve beyond just speculation sure so I think I think the bottom line to level set everything is that it's still very early on and so when you have or you have a number of entrepreneurs whether it's in Bitcoin or others other other crypto assets or even new tokens everybody in that in that in that space is still trying to figure out the killer app or the killer use case for crypto currencies so that's where we're at today but when I look at kind of whether it's like you know you want to put a valuation on Bitcoin or anything like that you know if you were really to take a poll and all around the world and say well what's what's Bitcoin good for you are gonna get an array of different answers out there mainly because it's gonna mean something different to different people and what I mean by that is so just by our counterparty base in general you know people look at Bitcoin as almost a store value right especially with pricing being where it is right so gold 2.0 well the critics of that use case said well bitcoins too volatile it can't be a store value well now Bitcoin isn't as well so maybe people are considering that it could be a store value you know that's that's one way people can look at other people look at it as a way of payment I mean we deal with corporates every single day that used Bitcoin for their service where they get paid in Bitcoin because it's quicker faster easier than traditional channels so that's another use case and so people are interacting with you know just a Bitcoin directly in in in different ways than the next person and so I think that's where kind of the the difference comes about in terms of how people are looking at the space because they know the world that they grew up in and the the rules and regulations that they they live within and that's how their interview Bitcoin versus somebody who may have grown up in a very capital controlled environment and and we're kind of governments can control a lot of aspects of what they're doing and they may look at Bitcoin very very differently than than the other person so hopefully that helps kind of round up that view of why there are so many different views on on the price of Bitcoin and what it's worth and what people are using it for the bottom line is people are using it for a lot of different reasons and so I think I think that's also one of the fascinating parts about it one of those reasons he sort of briefly touched on earlier was the the technology aspect of it Bane is involved in the spaces you are have you seen any notable applications of blockchain being used in in the real world I think people are still well there's this whole concept of like private blockchains first public blockchains but i think unlike the private blockchains side i mean that's that's kind of going full full steam ahead there are a lot of enterprise companies out there that are building products for a number of institutions out there whether it's on you know the the financial services side or anything like that and on the on the crypto asset side where you actually have a need of token traveling within these block chains that's still being built out obviously bitcoin is the most inherent one that everybody knows about but I still think people are very very excited about what this can do right because the way I look at it is you know there's this public ledger that gets reconciled every ten minutes just talking about Bitcoin I mean just the sheer possible applications of that you're seeing play out in the market where you have entrepreneurs trying to build and and you know who knows if it's the right business model or not but they're trying to build you know medical records on top of Bitcoin they're trying to build you know real estate transactions on top of watching technologies they're trying to figure out ways that they can leverage this technology and again it's still early days where people are kind of throwing things against the wall and trying to figure out what sticks because I think they realize that if they're able to leverage a different market along with crypto that that could be kind of the killer use case that people see out there but I actually don't see it as one killer use case to trump them all it's I think there's me a number of different applications and ways that people interact with it and and maybe in the future people aren't even gonna know that they're interacting with it and there's gonna be using it just to pick on one of the example she gave there I think it was health records being stored on a sort of a blockchain I mean what would be the the benefits of that you know I I don't work directly in that field but I would just say that you know I think it's this idea that you have a ledger that's time stamp that's immutable that is also global in distribution and then decentralized so I think all of those attributes kind of help not just medical industry but but any industry that has differing sets of information at different times and it kind of level sets all of that onto an even playing field for everybody involved all right so let's talk a little bit about some of the trading opportunities you know last time I remember we spoke a bit about our being the various price discrepancies between various exchanges and you sort of spoke about how it's a bit more difficult than what most people think it is on the surface where do you see possible opportunity for your average kind of independent self back trader you know I'm talking about things which aren't necessarily worthwhile for a bigger player like Cumberland but might be worthwhile for smaller participants to sort of look into like is there anything which you think is interesting worthwhile investigating I'd say definitely on kind of major its changes or major coins out there that the opportunities is is not there you you've had a number of entrance into the market where spreads have come in and markets have tightened in any opportunities that may have presented themselves years prior you know they are kind of getting taken up and the space is getting a little bit more crowded there but in terms of I guess other opportunities that maybe you know other other people can be looking at you know I think one of the interesting things and development so this year is idea of like decentralize exchanges although we don't participate on any decentralize exchanges I can see that being interesting arbitrage opportunity for different folks who who can granted those markets are mainly focused on retail size transactions and and they have their own nuances but you know that's definitely interesting development as more and more of these decentralized exchanges kind of come about so what is a decentralized exchange a decentralized exchange is be almost just like a a peer-to-peer exchange where people are trading with one another on kind of a singular network that allows them to kind of Tran transfer and trade different crypto assets for one another and these decentralized exchanges are these just a recent development I'd say so probably in the last year too but more so today is as more people started to figure out kind of interestingness about it okay and do you think this is possibly a way that you know these sorts of exchange is it gonna overpower is probably not the right word but do you think this is sort of something that might catch on and sort of be a serious competition for the other exchanges that are already sort of running the game you know I think that there are the ideas very fascinating but as we've seen it play out over the last few years in terms of well you know Bitcoin adoption or theorem adoption or things like that it's it's always going to be slower than what do you think is gonna actually happen and so I think it's probably too far to tell exactly how these are gonna impact the way that traditional exchanges work but I'll just say that the idea is out there now that someone has built this thing or multiple things and this idea of decentralized clearing decentralized trading is is now an idea out there that that's working in practice but again I still see it kind of more within the retail circles I don't at this point I'm not sure if there's gonna be any institutional involvement just yet so so how come you mentioned this because it's a very new thing you feel like there could be some inefficiencies which traders could take advantage of is that while you sort of thought to bring that up no I just think that it's an interesting development that kind of happened over this year and and you know when you had mentioned just well what are the opportunities for other traders that may be out there you know in the you know quote-unquote the traditional markets of the crypto exchanges I mean the arbitrage opportunities are few and far between but decentralized exchanges maybe maybe something that's more interesting yeah okay okay cool Bobby you know obviously I'm not I don't follow the crypto market too closely I do follow up with a little bit of interest and a little bit of skin in the game but I don't uh I'm not as involved in it as you are obviously you know other things which you feel as I should be asking you about which I haven't are there any topics which you think are worth while discussing sure I mean there's like this yeah and and and people brought this up a lot last year they continued to bring up this year it's you know when's this institutionalization of crypto going to happen and you know how's it gonna play out I think I think you're actually seeing it kind of play out in two ways this year I think there's been like an infrastructure play that I mentioned before you know you have more custodians today than you had last year you're more venues traditional venues that have announced that they're going to get involved in the crypto asset space you have the existing crypto exchanges that trying to bolster their businesses and make things better on their side you have a number a Grenadier platforms out there that have emerged and so all of that to me shows that the framework is being built whereas last year that that framework didn't even exist and so so this framework is being built which i think is helpful for institutions to get more comfortable with the space that's sort of something you hear a little bit like obviously being spoken about is is like you said when are the institutions gonna be getting involved in and more heavily involved in the space it seems like people kind of like the idea that institutions are going to be getting involved in in crypto currency markets why do you think people like that idea hey you know I think it provides some level validation to the market that some of the most sophisticated investors more investment teams out there have now you know whether they want to look at is like a stamp or a stamp on the industry or something like that that provides them some level of comfort that hey even these folks are now involved in crypto currencies that then that Wow that that means that it's it's now mainstream but I'll just say that you know I think there has been a misconception over the past few years of what involvement looks like our adoption looks like I think a lot of people had speculated and me to a degree as well that these institutions are gonna come to the market and they're basically just gonna buy coins and the price is gonna kind of run up over time I think I think you've seen it actually play out differently and you know people say well the institutions are involved I'll say you know I just don't think they're involved in the way that you're looking at you know and I think the Yale announcement was something very very interesting right these these investors and in institutions are now participating and not just the coin aspect of it but they're looking at it from a vehicle perspective of different you know whether it's a fund that's investing in things and and they're investing in hybrid models as well they're investing in funds that are also investing in coins but also taking a more VC style approach towards protocols and things like that in another infrastructure place Bobby you a recent featured in a a Financial Times article and you said something to the extent of you know we're not in this just for a year or two we see a bigger picture down the line and regard to crypto currency markets you know for you what does that picture look like I think what I mentioned earlier just about whether it's or I guess mainly it's the the idea that we're going into to new territory new markets and and for for me that's obviously that's that's a bet that we're doing on the industry in terms of helping it grow helping you adopt and taking our best practices that we've done here in the US to – to Asia and then and an even broader – you know to Japan and Korea and so I think for us it's it's bringing kind of a level of sophistication and standards that we've seen in other markets that better trade at drw and trying to instill those practices into into still this very growing ass across very good man very good all right we can probably leave it there I think unless there's anything else you wanted to bring up no I think thought this was great yeah okay cool so you're on Twitter what is your Twitter handle Bobby it's Robert Jay Cho Robert the letter Jersey Cho yep okay cool and if someone's interested in learning a little bit more about Cumberland where's the best place to go you know our website is probably the best place WW Cumberland geo and that's probably the best information they're gonna be able to get okay very good cool man well I appreciate you coming on the podcast for the second time it was really great to speak again obviously there's been a bit happening since last time so I'm glad we could do this yeah I appreciate it and I'm gonna have to check in with on the on the merch store that you have seen any new stuff going on I'll send you would say I'll say office all right thanks a lot man I appreciate it you've reached the end of this episode of chaplet traders but rest assured there are more episodes loaded with real market insight and zero hype on the way soon so to stay updated with each great new release subscribe to the podcast on iTunes and we'd love it if you'd leave a rating and review we'll catch you next time on chat with traders

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